Oasis Chorale dancing

[AnthonyMartin]

Sometimes I wonder if the people who speak to me about such things realise that I am an "artist" and a "musician" myself. Instead, I often get treated like I'm just some kind of plain-person rube who grew up speaking Pennsylvania Dutch behind a woodstove and thought a trip to the Park City Center mall is a major life experience.

I have real reasons and reservations and concerns about "the arts". Much of that comes from, well, actually participating in "the arts" and being around people who think they have "artistic callings". (A free tip - many people who think they have "artistic callings" possess zero aptitude towards art worth pursuing at all.) Even more embarrassing are ex-plain people who think that the only reason they haven't come into some kind of glorious career as an "artist" is because the oppressive, evil plain culture somehow held them back.

There is a sad lack of insight that lots and lots of non-plain people want to be artists, musicians, actors, dancers, ballerinas, and so forth, and very, very few of them possess the talent to do so at the level of running a storefront in a small town giving dance lessons, much less doing so at a professional level. The reality is that plain culture means I can live in a world where my daughter doesn't get to grow up pressured her whole life that she should try to be an accomplished dancer or ballerina or gymnast (which some tiny fraction of a percent of people who try to do so, will actually succeed); and for this reason, I think it is far more superior than the meat-grinder of "the arts".

Myself as a child (Eastern and Hope) and my children (BMA) faced far more bullying and pressure to confirm to the worldly, satisfying the flesh, rules on clothing, music, cars, etc., of the Plain and Not-so-plain Anabaptist culture than they did in our local public school, that for the most part had a much higher standard for music and the arts than did the plain setting.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Sometimes I wonder if the people who speak to me about such things realise that I am an "artist" and a "musician" myself. Instead, I often get treated like I'm just some kind of plain-person rube who grew up speaking Pennsylvania Dutch behind a woodstove and thought a trip to the Park City Center mall is a major life experience.

I have real reasons and reservations and concerns about "the arts". Much of that comes from, well, actually participating in "the arts" and being around people who think they have "artistic callings". (A free tip - many people who think they have "artistic callings" possess zero aptitude towards art worth pursuing at all.) Even more embarrassing are ex-plain people who think that the only reason they haven't come into some kind of glorious career as an "artist" is because the oppressive, evil plain culture somehow held them back.

There is a sad lack of insight that lots and lots of non-plain people want to be artists, musicians, actors, dancers, ballerinas, and so forth, and very, very few of them possess the talent to do so at the level of running a storefront in a small town giving dance lessons, much less doing so at a professional level. The reality is that plain culture means I can live in a world where my daughter doesn't get to grow up pressured her whole life that she should try to be an accomplished dancer or ballerina or gymnast (which some tiny fraction of a percent of people who try to do so, will actually succeed); and for this reason, I think it is far more superior than the meat-grinder of "the arts".

Myself as a child (Eastern and Hope) and my children (BMA) faced far more bullying and pressure to confirm to the worldly, satisfying the flesh, rules on clothing, music, cars, etc., of the Plain and Not-so-plain Anabaptist culture than they did in our local public school, that for the most part had a much higher standard for music and the arts than did the plain setting.

So leave. No one is making you stay. If you don't like that we do not have a high "standard" for music and arts feel free, please don't slam the door when you leave.

But know that your children will likely be on the liberal side of MCUSA, continuing the generational drift that is already evidenced in the above. When your children are fine with divorce, social drunkeness, homosexual marriage and worse, don't come crying to us.

[AnthonyMartin]

So leave. No one is making you stay. If you don't like that we do not have a high "standard" for music and arts feel free, please don't slam the door when you leave.

But know that your children will likely be on the liberal side of MCUSA, continuing the generational drift that is already evidenced in the above. When your children are fine with divorce, social drunkeness, homosexual marriage and worse, don't come crying to us.

Most of my children have moved more conservative/plain than I am. I haven’t seen the classic, “your children will move more liberal than you” play out in any setting I’ve been part of. As far as homosexuality I was exposed to more of that in the plain school I was part of than I ever have in the more liberal settings or even the public school. I pray it was an anomaly.

I am LMC now, most of my children are BMA or have married into the conservative Church of the Brethren groups that have left the Church of the Brethren.

Or did you mean just leave Mennonet?

Edit: I wasn’t complaining about my time in the plain circles, while it’s true I see little to no value and mostly harm done by these cultures, I was more trying to illustrate that the pressure described earlier, not wanting your daughter to feel pressured to be a ballerina, doesn’t seem to me to be improved in any way be it a plain culture or other.

[JohnH]

Maybe I'm just puzzled about what these 'pressures' are. I can't speak too much for Eastern or Hope since I don't know much about what it's like to grow up in those circles, but in the plain circles I am in, these pressures growing up simply don't exist.

It may be prudent to remember that not every plain group is Eastern. So far, I don't find much to like about Eastern and would have little interest in being part of a group like that.

[Soloist]

Maybe I'm just puzzled about what these 'pressures' are. I can't speak too much for Eastern or Hope since I don't know much about what it's like to grow up in those circles, but in the plain circles I am in, these pressures growing up simply don't exist.

It may be prudent to remember that not every plain group is Eastern. So far, I don't find much to like about Eastern and would have little interest in being part of a group like that.

its also possible you may (as an adult seeker) have missed some of these pressures. I would hazard a guess they exist and you either don't see them, or don't see them as a problem.

[JohnH]

Maybe I'm just puzzled about what these 'pressures' are. I can't speak too much for Eastern or Hope since I don't know much about what it's like to grow up in those circles, but in the plain circles I am in, these pressures growing up simply don't exist.

It may be prudent to remember that not every plain group is Eastern. So far, I don't find much to like about Eastern and would have little interest in being part of a group like that.

its also possible you may (as an adult seeker) have missed some of these pressures. I would hazard a guess they exist and you either don't see them, or don't see them as a problem.

I base what I say on other people who grew up in the culture and what they tell me.

I have observed that transitional cultures tend to have a toxic youth culture where there is significant peer pressure to be worldly.

[Grace]

Sometimes I wonder if the people who speak to me about such things realise that I am an "artist" and a "musician" myself. Instead, I often get treated like I'm just some kind of plain-person rube who grew up speaking Pennsylvania Dutch behind a woodstove and thought a trip to the Park City Center mall is a major life experience.

LOL... I grew up speaking Pennsylvania Dutch, we had a wood stove and I loved Park City. Plain-person rube here...and not ashamed of it.

Sorry off topic, just had to interject that. Carry on.

[Jazman]

Because at this point they are a medium of liberal-progressive influence.

A few words on worship dance from a senior statesman of the liberal-progressive tradition.

The latter part of that would be a great rebuttal to some opinions offered in the Politics/Current Event boards as of late...

[blackfriar]

We might also ask why people who wish to sing with excellence and move or clap need be judged for it. Why can't they go where they are invited without critique from mennonet.

This exactly.

[Ernie]

I've been pondering on the themes in this thread for a few weeks.

A few thoughts...

I well understand that Plain Anabaptists are not going to get a lot of encouragement to pursue a musical career that involves performance. That is simply against the Anabaptist concepts regarding humility and doing things together as a community.
Most Plain Anabaptists musical artists will not be funded in order to get an undergrad degree in music let alone a grad degree.
The majority of Plain Anabaptists don't allow instruments so anyone who isn't willing to become Pilgrim or something less conservative isn't going to be able to enjoy playing instruments.
However...
Musically inclined people can teach good music in day schools, and this is often appreciated. The singing of many communities has been transformed by teachers who taught school students to love music and there are lots of stories about this from the past as well as the present about how this is happening.
There is a good market for well written hymns and songs and arrangements written by Plain people.
There has been a dearth of music curriculum writers, and some musicians could lean into this.
Most Anabaptist communities are ok with evening or weekend singing schools for adults.
There is unlimited opportunity for good singing groups to sing in nursing homes, prisons, etc. and many churches would bless this.
Most every Anabaptist 21+ would be allowed to pursue music education quietly as a sideline interest. (They might not get a lot of encouragement depending on what family they come from or what church they attend.)

So, when Plain Anabaptists talk about not being able to pursue excellence in music, or artists needing to leave the church in order to be an artist, I'm not sure that is entirely accurate. I think what they are really saying is that Plain Anabaptists can't purse music in the same manner as most other musicians and get the same level of encouragement/praise as what other musicians get.
To illustrate my point,
The Israelites wanted a king rather than a prophet like Samuel. I'm guessing some Israelites believed that there was no room for "real leadership" in the nation of Israel. Pursuing a calling like Samuel's wasn't consider leadership.

So the question in my mind is, Does a person need to pursue the arts in the manner everyone else does, or can they think outside of the traditional music career box and still have a rich musical life experience?

A second question is,
For those who think that Plain Anabaptists are "bad" for restricting musicians from becoming musicians are they really thinking about what they are promoting?

Here is the spread of musicians/music in the USA currently
20–22% — Rock
19–21% — R&B / Hip-Hop
15–17% — Pop
10–12% — Country
7–9% — Latin
5–7% — Alternative
3–4% — Electronic / Dance
1–2% — Jazz
1–2% — Classical
1–2% — Folk / Americana
<1% — Blues

Are those who believe that Plain Anabaptists are too restrictive really wanting to see this sort of spread in Plain Anabaptist churches? If so, then I don't think they understand the essence of Plain Anabaptist culture, why it still exists, and why they would hate to see the Plain Anabaptist culture cease to exist. (Unless they are like Anthony who doesn't really see much value in it to begin with.)

And lastly,
There are some Plain Anabaptists musicians who wish they could sing in country bands or other major genre's but most who think that Anabaptists hinder musical art expression are folks who want to sing classical/choral. Why is that? Where did the desire for excellence in classical/choral come from? Did it not come from a rich a plain, A cappela hymnody heritage? Had these same people grown up in a normal American home, their interests would likely not be classical/choral excellence but rather excellence in a range of genre's. So my theory is that the thing that seems to be too restrictive in their minds, is the very thing that helped them develop a taste for quality music that lasts for centuries.
I think the fact that they even care about wanting to produce and sing good quality classical and choral music is because a subculture limited their exposure and helped them develop a particular taste.