Poll: Saved or Unsaved?

[Josh]

Neto, that is correct as far as their more "secret" doctrines go - that Adam was a god, we are gods too, and Jesus was also such a god. (They also believe that Jesus is Satan's brother, which I consider an unusual belief.)

As far as their open doctrine goes, they don't officially claim to hold to the Adam-Godhood doctrine anymore, but they do believe that Jesus used to be a man just like the rest of us, and he eventually achieved perfection and thus became a god (or God). But they also believe the rest of us can eventually do the same thing, and thus be equal to Jesus. I think this particular doctrine strays from any kind of traditional understanding of the Trinity.

[Valerie]

Let's call it 'discerning'. I only checked one box in the poll, because failure to recognize Jesus as the Son of God is a degree of false doctrine that puts a person or group outside of the family of faith. They judge themselves by their refusal to believe.

I assume you are referring to the Mormon's. As I understand it, Mormons believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that he is one with the Father and that he is the Savior of the World. If there is anything about Jesus in the New Testament that Mormon's officially deny, I would be glad to know about it. I am aware that they interpret some things about Jesus differently than the historical interpretations of the church.

Here is their official position.
https://ca.churchofjesuschrist.org/what ... sus-christ

Am I thinking of another group? I was thinking that their scriptures say that Jesus was a son of God, that we are all God's "spirit children", but he excelled in ways that none of the rest of us have. Also, something about a "Heavenly mother" comes to mind. And that both the Father and Jesus have physical bodies.

Regarding the link, they seem to be rather secretive about the fine points of their doctrine and practice, and some things may only be revealed to their own converts. I may have a somewhat faulty concept of them, since (as I recall) they deny the doctrine of the trinity, and I received my formal Bible teaching at an Evangelical college. (Not that I hold to that doctrine either, but that the teachers had that viewpoint. Also, I don't say that it is definitely false, just that we cannot know from what we read in the Scriptures. It may be, and it may not be. But it is 'wrong' in the sense that it goes beyond the revelation of God in the Scripture.)

It really comes down to one thing.
Was Joseph Smith a true prophet of God as he claimed.
If yes, then we all need to learn the revelations God gave him that led to the LDS Church.

If he was a false prophet, than you can reject any claimed revelation he came up with.

It's as simple as that.

True or false prophet?

[Ernie]

I definitely believe that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Does that mean that everything he came up with was false? I would not say that with certainty. But because he was a false prophet, I am going to be skeptical of anything he came up with.

But the same is true with anyone else in any other denomination who shares his interpretations and conclusions citing various scriptural references and projecting his views as being scripture. I hear this all the time from people who are supposedly doing exegetical sermons, but injecting their own paraphrases and conclusions with comments such as "Jesus is saying..." "What the scriptures are teaching us is that..." "God would never..." etc.

[Ken]

I definitely believe that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Does that mean that everything he came up with was false? I would not say that with certainty. But because he was a false prophet, I am going to be skeptical of anything he came up with.

But the same is true with anyone else in any other denomination who shares his interpretations and conclusions citing various scriptural references and projecting his views as being scripture. I hear this all the time from people who are supposedly doing exegetical sermons, but injecting their own paraphrases and conclusions with comments such as "Jesus is saying..." "What the scriptures are teaching us is that..." "God would never..." etc.

I don’t think you’ll get any argument about Joseph Smith being a false prophet here on an Anabaptist-leaning forum.

The more interesting question is this: Are Mormons saved? Specifically devout Mormons who follow all of their church’s teachings, doctrines, and beliefs?

[Josh]

I definitely believe that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Does that mean that everything he came up with was false? I would not say that with certainty. But because he was a false prophet, I am going to be skeptical of anything he came up with.

But the same is true with anyone else in any other denomination who shares his interpretations and conclusions citing various scriptural references and projecting his views as being scripture. I hear this all the time from people who are supposedly doing exegetical sermons, but injecting their own paraphrases and conclusions with comments such as "Jesus is saying..." "What the scriptures are teaching us is that..." "God would never..." etc.

I don’t think you’ll get any argument about Joseph Smith being a false prophet here on an Anabaptist-leaning forum.

The more interesting question is this: Are Mormons saved? Specifically devout Mormons who follow all of their church’s teachings, doctrines, and beliefs?

For me. This is an unanswered question. I honestly do not know.

[Ernie]

For me. This is an unanswered question. I honestly do not know.

The same for me.

I do know about Mormons who claim to have been born again in the LDS church, many of whom leave the church eventually, once they come to terms with all the history and teachings of their religion. So I think it is possible. I wouldn't give a Mormon hope of eternal life as long as they stayed loyal to the church, but again, who am I to say that Jesus couldn't save them in that situation. I'll be glad to spend eternity with a Mormon if Jesus decides to let them in.

What bothers me almost as much as being part of the Mormon church, is leaving the Mormon church to become Evangelical. Granted, the convert gets rid of a lot of bad doctrine and sugar-coated history, but they often take on a lot of bad doctrine that results in antinomianism (scriptural lawlessness).

[Josh]

I worked with a Mormon when I wasn’t a believer around 13 years ago. His attitude and treatment of me was quite Christlike and left and impression on me. Whatever it was he had, it made me wish I could have it, too. I ended up finding it 3 years later.

[Valerie]

For me. This is an unanswered question. I honestly do not know.

The same for me.

I do know about Mormons who claim to have been born again in the LDS church, many of whom leave the church eventually, once they come to terms with all the history and teachings of their religion. So I think it is possible. I wouldn't give a Mormon hope of eternal life as long as they stayed loyal to the church, but again, who am I to say that Jesus couldn't save them in that situation. I'll be glad to spend eternity with a Mormon if Jesus decides to let them in.

What bothers me almost as much as being part of the Mormon church, is leaving the Mormon church to become Evangelical. Granted, the convert gets rid of a lot of bad doctrine and sugar-coated history, but they often take on a lot of bad doctrine that results in antinomianism (scriptural lawlessness).

My uncle & Aunts family was Mormon. My Aunt married into it. I do not wish to share the terrible sins that were committed in their extended Mormon family. My cousin got so drunk in high school, and they tried to revive him with coffee to o which he said he was Mormon & couldn't drink coffee. My cousin grew up Mormon, and never officially left, she is on her 4th marriage. I have known great Mormons, and great people from many non- Christian religions.

[NedFlanders]

Salvation goes hand in hand with being born again. So since Jesus said that if your not born again you will not see the Kingdom of God and most don't see or preach the Gospel of the kingdom of God then it would seem that there are few that enter. And therefore why I find myself amongst Anabaptist people - there are very very few outside of Conservative Anabaptism who preach the Gospel that Jesus preached and when evangelicals are asked, typically they are confused when confronted with what Jesus said and profess to never having seen the kingdom of God to the point of even arguing against the words of Christ. In my experience Catholics don't argue this however.

Did Paul preach the same Gospel that Jesus preached ?

When asking this question on the Internet, this came up -

Paul was – is – the apostle to the Gentiles. He preached the gospel of the grace of God. He did not preach the gospel of the kingdom. When Paul preached to the Jews he “proved” to them first of all that the Lord Jesus Christ was Messiah.

Do you agree or not ?

Not. I never considered asking the internet...

Luke tells us in the book of Acts a number of times that Paul preached the kingdom of God. (verses 14:22, 19:8, 28:23+31)
Paul also has some great verses to help us to understand the kingdom of God with verses like Romans 14:17, 1 Corinthians 4:20.
And he agrees with Christ in Colossians 1:13 about the present reality of the kingdom.
Paul tells us quite clearly who will not inherit the kingdom of God in places like 1 Corinthians and Galatians - which gives us a good window into who is saved or unsaved even.

I'm unconcerned if you agree and I don't care to be right, however I want to agree with God and His holy Word. I am thoroughly convinced that Paul spoke the same Gospel as Christ, albeit God still allows some personality from each individual to flow through. And so we may not all say the exact same words - BUT I believe it is always the same message from Christ and those who are following Him - as far as I understand God's idea of unity and the work of the Holy Spirit.

[Valerie]

Having been more in the Pentecostal/Evangelical umbrella of Christianity most of my life & then beginning to seek Anabaptism on the more conservative side starting approx 17 years ago as a seeker- i would see the "focus" of Jesus vs the "focus" of Paul being different- and the focus of Anabaptists and focus of Evangelicals reflects that.

Jesus came to preach the kingdom to the lost sheep of Israel, admonish the Pharisees, and prepare His chosen disciples/Apostles for the message they were to give after He was crucified, which was the main purpose for His coming- so you have His message to Israel primarily in a way of correction- He even told them, there were many things they were not ready to hear.

AFTER His Resurrection, of course Paul preached the kingdom- I don't know of any pastors I sat under who don't preach the entire New testament (save our present who doesn't preach Revelation entirely)

After the resurrection Christ had deeper truths to share until His Ascension. After His Resurrection the Holy Spirit was poured out on every convert that believed and was baptized - and the promise of them being sealed with the
Holy Spirit.

Paul was reaching the lost Gentiles -

So his saying things like 1 Corinthians 1:20
"Where is the wise? Where is the Scribe? Where is the disputer of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preach to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom, but we preach Christ Crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness- but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."

Then he again says in 1 Cor 2: 2:
"For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him Crucified."

It's not that evangelicals deny Jesus teaching of the Kingdom, but they also recognize the focus was on reaching the lost, and like Paul, preaching Jesus and Him crucified- as a way to reconcile all who put their faith in Him, to be "added to the Church, preparing for the Kingdom on earth as it is in Heaven. The sanctification begins here

When I read Galatians, and Paul's admonishment to them asking who "bewitched them" it does seem we need to be careful for the Gospel preached to not be a different Gospel than Jesus Christ and Him Crucified and not on what " we do" and are, which is what Galatians was addressing, but on what Jesus did by suffering & dying for us, we are saved by what He did- and we shouldn't, it seems, make the mistake of the Jews/Pharisees & Galatians in it being about "us".

This is where I see the divide between the 2 groups -
This is the main reason I can admire Anabaptists in many ways but sense the focus Jesus commissioned the Apostles with was the message of the Cross as Paul lays out again and again. That doesn't eliminate kingdom teaching but Evangelicals focus on what Paul focused on, to reach the lost- that is why you will not see council meetings and splits over externals, (outward adornments) but indeed splits these days over actual sin being accepted by some churches.

It is of course, a Last Days scenario