It is the Holy Spirits purpose, one of them, to convict someone of sin and we all sin in some way daily. That is the beauty of Jesus comparing the publican and the Pharisee - which one was justified.
I get weary of this constant Pharisee attitude looking down nose at other Christians who have joy in their salvation. And yet can say "be merciful to me a sinner" and then as Jesus points out, is "justified" not the self righteous focusing on behavior. It's what stopped Saul dead in his tracks on way to Damascus. He didn't get the Gospel message until He met Jesus and actually learned why his zeal for God and perfection was a stench-
He desires mercy, and not sacrifice. You can tell when someone really "knows" God yet they are not perfect.
I'm not for trying to sort that out "in place" of God who knows the hearts.
To whom much has been given, much will be required- God knows where a lot of these people have "come from" and not all with an Anabaptist spoon in their mouths-
Jesus told His disciples who were far less than perfect, to rejoice that their names were written in the Lambs Book of Life.
It is possible for humble Christians to have compassion and mercy for those who don't show fruits meet of repentance, or who profess a different Gospel than the one Christ preached. If you see that as self righteousness then that might be a sign of pride in itself to falsely accuse peoples motives.
Maybe, but that's how I felt when I read your previous post, I suppose it's a case of judge not lest ye be judged the same. But this whole topic, is promoting us judging others, isn't it?
We were asked to share without judging but observation in the OP.
I don't think I pointed to motive but experience.
We Do however need righteous judgement to share the Good News.
Sometimes the only thing wrong is our perspective - so just because someone sounds wrong doesn't mean they are thinking the same way as it is perceived and someone misunderstanding them could just be a reflection of how the other person processes these things. Be careful.
0 x
Psalms 119:2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
NedFlanders wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 3:25 am
Salvation goes hand in hand with being born again. So since Jesus said that if your not born again you will not see the Kingdom of God and most don't see or preach the Gospel of the kingdom of God then it would seem that there are few that enter. And therefore why I find myself amongst Anabaptist people - there are very very few outside of Conservative Anabaptism who preach the Gospel that Jesus preached and when evangelicals are asked, typically they are confused when confronted with what Jesus said and profess to never having seen the kingdom of God to the point of even arguing against the words of Christ. In my experience Catholics don't argue this however.
Did Paul preach the same Gospel that Jesus preached ?
When asking this question on the Internet, this came up -
Paul was – is – the apostle to the Gentiles. He preached the gospel of the grace of God. He did not preach the gospel of the kingdom. When Paul preached to the Jews he “proved” to them first of all that the Lord Jesus Christ was Messiah.
NedFlanders wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 3:25 am
Salvation goes hand in hand with being born again. So since Jesus said that if your not born again you will not see the Kingdom of God and most don't see or preach the Gospel of the kingdom of God then it would seem that there are few that enter. And therefore why I find myself amongst Anabaptist people - there are very very few outside of Conservative Anabaptism who preach the Gospel that Jesus preached and when evangelicals are asked, typically they are confused when confronted with what Jesus said and profess to never having seen the kingdom of God to the point of even arguing against the words of Christ. In my experience Catholics don't argue this however.
Did Paul preach the same Gospel that Jesus preached ?
When asking this question on the Internet, this came up -
Paul was – is – the apostle to the Gentiles. He preached the gospel of the grace of God. He did not preach the gospel of the kingdom. When Paul preached to the Jews he “proved” to them first of all that the Lord Jesus Christ was Messiah.
Do you agree or not ?
Did Paul write 1 Corinthians 11?
Does it apply to today, or did he just waste ink on something that doesn't apply to us anymore?
If so, can we just ignore the rest of what Paul said?
NedFlanders wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 3:25 am
Salvation goes hand in hand with being born again. So since Jesus said that if your not born again you will not see the Kingdom of God and most don't see or preach the Gospel of the kingdom of God then it would seem that there are few that enter. And therefore why I find myself amongst Anabaptist people - there are very very few outside of Conservative Anabaptism who preach the Gospel that Jesus preached and when evangelicals are asked, typically they are confused when confronted with what Jesus said and profess to never having seen the kingdom of God to the point of even arguing against the words of Christ. In my experience Catholics don't argue this however.
Did Paul preach the same Gospel that Jesus preached ?
When asking this question on the Internet, this came up -
Paul was – is – the apostle to the Gentiles. He preached the gospel of the grace of God. He did not preach the gospel of the kingdom. When Paul preached to the Jews he “proved” to them first of all that the Lord Jesus Christ was Messiah.
Do you agree or not ?
Did Paul write 1 Corinthians 11?
Does it apply to today, or did he just waste ink on something that doesn't apply to us anymore?
If so, can we just ignore the rest of what Paul said?
Do you lift your hands in prayer everywhere as Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 2:8 ? This thread is about being saved. I don't regard what you are referring to and our posture in prayer as salvation issues.
I took from this post by NedFlanders that Jesus preached a different Gospel than Paul did. If we are talking the good news (Gospel) regarding salvation, this is the good news about how Jesus made it possible for us to be saved. This good news is what we preach today with regard to being saved that is about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and belief in Him that He paid the penalty for all our sins.
Sudsy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 11:48 am
I took from this post by NedFlanders that Jesus preached a different Gospel than Paul did.
Why would you jump to that conclusion? Ned didn't even mention Paul.
I took his post to be a challenge to the Gospel that Paul preached, which evangelicals and I have preached, and it not being the Gospel that Jesus preached. That they don't grasp or have entered the Kingdom of God and therefore are not born again. If I mis-interpreted that post, Ned can clarify my understanding on what he was saying.
Valerie wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 8:25 amBut this whole topic, is promoting us judging others, isn't it?
I am glad to spend eternity with anyone Jesus saves and brings to his marriage supper.
The OP specifically said that voting in the poll is not judgment but rather learning how people think about these issues. If someone is not able to participate in the poll and discussion without distinguishing between these two things, or without judging others here on MN, then they should probably avoid this thread.
Notice the poll is not about who is going to be saved and who is not, but what would not surprise us.
Neto wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 8:41 am
Let's call it 'discerning'. I only checked one box in the poll, because failure to recognize Jesus as the Son of God is a degree of false doctrine that puts a person or group outside of the family of faith. They judge themselves by their refusal to believe.
I assume you are referring to the Mormon's. As I understand it, Mormons believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that he is one with the Father and that he is the Savior of the World. If there is anything about Jesus in the New Testament that Mormon's officially deny, I would be glad to know about it. I am aware that they interpret some things about Jesus differently than the historical interpretations of the church.
Neto wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 8:41 am
Let's call it 'discerning'. I only checked one box in the poll, because failure to recognize Jesus as the Son of God is a degree of false doctrine that puts a person or group outside of the family of faith. They judge themselves by their refusal to believe.
I assume you are referring to the Mormon's. As I understand it, Mormons believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that he is one with the Father and that he is the Savior of the World. If there is anything about Jesus in the New Testament that Mormon's officially deny, I would be glad to know about it. I am aware that they interpret some things about Jesus differently than the historical interpretations of the church.
Part of the problem here is that Mormons have official public doctrine, and then official secret doctrine which is only shared with members. The two are not always in agreement (particularly when it comes to things like the divinity of Christ and so on).
The only way to know the secret doctrines is to ask ex-members.
Neto wrote: ↑Thu Jun 27, 2024 8:41 am
Let's call it 'discerning'. I only checked one box in the poll, because failure to recognize Jesus as the Son of God is a degree of false doctrine that puts a person or group outside of the family of faith. They judge themselves by their refusal to believe.
I assume you are referring to the Mormon's. As I understand it, Mormons believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that he is one with the Father and that he is the Savior of the World. If there is anything about Jesus in the New Testament that Mormon's officially deny, I would be glad to know about it. I am aware that they interpret some things about Jesus differently than the historical interpretations of the church.
Am I thinking of another group? I was thinking that their scriptures say that Jesus was a son of God, that we are all God's "spirit children", but he excelled in ways that none of the rest of us have. Also, something about a "Heavenly mother" comes to mind. And that both the Father and Jesus have physical bodies.
Regarding the link, they seem to be rather secretive about the fine points of their doctrine and practice, and some things may only be revealed to their own converts. I may have a somewhat faulty concept of them, since (as I recall) they deny the doctrine of the trinity, and I received my formal Bible teaching at an Evangelical college. (Not that I hold to that doctrine either, but that the teachers had that viewpoint. Also, I don't say that it is definitely false, just that we cannot know from what we read in the Scriptures. It may be, and it may not be. But it is 'wrong' in the sense that it goes beyond the revelation of God in the Scripture.)