Global Warning/Climate Change

[MaxPC]

I would say God is in control also in the area of sin increasing in that He says where sin abounds grace abounds all the more. So, there is no need to be anxious about anything just as Philippians 4:6 tells us. It becomes a matter of experiencing the peace of God beyond our understanding. It's our choice.

Well i do see a difference in God being sovereign over our weather, and him giving free will to every human being.

Even though we have free will, we do not have to worry about sin abounding (getting worse) in the world anymore than worrying about the weather. According to Romans 5:20 we can be assured that - “For wherever sin exists in abundance and is multiplying and constantly expanding, that is precisely the time and place where grace is poured out in a far greater, surpassing quantity.” paraphrased. That is why I do not need be anxious over sin expanding in this world. However, if I don't believe this, I am likely to act defeated, fearful and and lose faith that God will still save as He always has. I don't see any reason for a believer to be anxious about current events although I am not completely free yet myself.

Climate change is one of many fears we don't need to live with as believers. Nor the expansion of sin. Nor politics, etc, etc. and that, to me, is how we are able to experience that peace of heart that goes beyond understanding. And as free will beings we can chose to obey and trust what God says to live in a peaceful state or not. Why would any believer chose to not live in a peaceful state of mind ? Isn't this due to worldly influences that we should be anxious about things or other Christian influences that seem to believe we can't be anxious free ?

Quite.
When a subject such as crime rise or other human activities of sin is mentioned here on the board, I see this as the raising of a subject for the purpose of prayer and for the purpose of information to make good business decisions. The stories about the abandonment of crime ridden areas by large businesses will inform the smaller business owners on the board and they in turn can use that information to protect their income for their families. Crime is a result of human free will decisions in immorality. God allows bad things to happen for His own ultimate plan. We are not privy to those plans though. However God did give us the ability to see patterns in events and plan accordingly of our own free will. It is not necessarily fear to watch and act; it is using the intelligence gifted us by God. We can also take actions to counter crime at a local level.

Conversely, weather is not under the control of man. It falls entirely within the purview of God and therefore we have an opportunity to watch and trust. The variables involved in weather systems are highly complex and are affected not only by planetary conditions but also by extra-planetary events, e.g. sunspots. Even micro-climates do not behave as predicted as they are impacted by macro-climates. We cannot impact earth's rotation; its solar orbit; nor even its tectonic activity. We cannot control sunspots; meteorites and asteroids; nor the passing of black holes in asymptote trajectory.

I am reminded of this quote:
Wherever politics tries to be redemptive, it is promising too much.
Where it wishes to do the work of God, it becomes not divine, but demonic.
~Pope Benedict XVI

[Soloist]

Let’s be practical here, we can and have changed weather on local scale before. Also we know that a volcano changed weather dramatically and we have the capability to do the same.
Clearly we don’t want to create a mini ice age but the point is we can. If we should is a different question. God has given us brains that are capable of profound destruction and creation of new things.
Bluntly speaking, we can’t stop the mind of a criminal but we could stop hurricanes. The cost is too high to do so though.

[Ken]

I would ask what basis we have for thinking humans can control global weather; there has yet to be any evidence of such happening (no changes in global temperatures that can’t be explained by simple factors like urban heat islands)

Most of the climate change industry makes predictions that big changes will happen in the future. Their past predictions have not come true. So I will start with the presumption that humans can’t control global weather conditions until I see evidence we can.

You may not choose to see it, but we have absolutely rock solid scientific evidence that we have already changed the world's climate in ways that are not explained by simple factors such as urban heat islands. Just off the top of my head:

1. We have absolutely solid scientific information that certain gases like CO2 and methane have a greenhouse effect in the atmosphere. The science behind this goes back to the 19th century and there are no serious scientists who argue otherwise.

2. We have absolutely solid scientific evidence that CO2 and other greenhouse gas levels have been steadily increasing in the atmosphere since the industrial revolution. No serious scientists dispute this.

3. We have absolutely solid evidence that humans since the industrial revolution are emitting immense quantities of CO2 and other greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. No one, scientist or otherwise seriously disputes this. We know how many cars, trucks, trains, ships, and powerplants there are on the planet and we have good estimates of their cumulative emissions.

4. We have absolutely solid evidence that the much of increase in CO2 in the atmosphere is due to human activities like combustion. We know this through using scientific methods such as rare isotope analysis. Some of it is, of course, due to things like melting permafrost. But most is due to combustion and not explainable in nature.

5. We have absolutely solid scientific evidence that the earth's atmosphere and oceans are already warming. And in the past 50 years or so our ability to monitor global climate has increased exponentially to the point that we are literally taking millions of measurements per day across the globe using satellites and thousands of automated monitoring stations. And this is not just happening in urban heat islands, but across the globe including places like the Arctic and Antarctic.

6. We have absolutely solid statistical evidence that both the magnitude and rate of climate changes we have already observed are not explainable through natural processes. In this case it is the rates that are actually most important. Yes in the past we have had ice ages and warm periods. No one disputes that the earth goes through natural cycles. But the current RATE of change is far outside anything that can be explained naturally. Both the rate of greenhouse gas increases and temperature increases.

Why is RATE important? Lets use an analogy. We know that giant tortoises are mobile animals and can crawl. But we also know their maximum speed which is about 300 meters per day or 10 km per month. So if giant tortoises started out in California they might actually be able to migrate all the way to New York using natural processes but it would likely take many generations and many years for them to do so. And if we observed a giant tortoise in California and then observed the same tortoise 6 hours later in New York we would be scientifically confident that the tortoise got there through human intervention such as an airplane, not through natural processes. Because we know that giant tortoises do not have the ability to fly at 500 mph and we know that they don't have the ability to teleport. Climate is no different. we do know that climate can fluctuate on natural cycles, but rate of change we are seeing and observing today is not explainable through natural processes any more than a giant tortoise traveling from California to New York in 6 hours can be explained through nature alone.

That was just off the top of my head as I need to leave for work. And there are sources that lay out the case with much more precision. But which of the above points do you think are scientifically invalid?

[Josh]

Let’s be practical here, we can and have changed weather on local scale before. Also we know that a volcano changed weather dramatically and we have the capability to do the same.
Clearly we don’t want to create a mini ice age but the point is we can. If we should is a different question. God has given us brains that are capable of profound destruction and creation of new things.
Bluntly speaking, we can’t stop the mind of a criminal but we could stop hurricanes. The cost is too high to do so though.

Actually, humans 100% can stop criminal behaviour and in fact have a duty to do so.

[Soloist]

Let’s be practical here, we can and have changed weather on local scale before. Also we know that a volcano changed weather dramatically and we have the capability to do the same.
Clearly we don’t want to create a mini ice age but the point is we can. If we should is a different question. God has given us brains that are capable of profound destruction and creation of new things.
Bluntly speaking, we can’t stop the mind of a criminal but we could stop hurricanes. The cost is too high to do so though.

Actually, humans 100% can stop criminal behaviour and in fact have a duty to do so.

[MaxPC]

Psalm 91
1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.

2 I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.

3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.

4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.

5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;

6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.

7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.

8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.

9 Because thou hast made the Lord, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;

10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.

11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.

14 Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.

15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.

16 With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

[Ken]

Let’s be practical here, we can and have changed weather on local scale before. Also we know that a volcano changed weather dramatically and we have the capability to do the same.
Clearly we don’t want to create a mini ice age but the point is we can. If we should is a different question. God has given us brains that are capable of profound destruction and creation of new things.
Bluntly speaking, we can’t stop the mind of a criminal but we could stop hurricanes. The cost is too high to do so though.

Actually, humans 100% can stop criminal behaviour and in fact have a duty to do so.

Actually I'm not sure that is a correct Biblical interpretation.

Individually yes, we can stop a single person from engaging in criminal behavior. But without looking up a lot of scripture I think it is accurate to say that God tells us that sin will always be with us here in the world, and that humans alone cannot erase it from the earth.

[Josh]

Ken,

Let me understand the position here and correct me if I’m wrong:

#1. The government can and should take action to change the weather, globally.

#2. The government is powerless to do anything to stop crime. Crime just happens, and we can’t do anything to change it.

[Ken]

Ken,

Let me understand the position here and correct me if I’m wrong:

#1. The government can and should take action to change the weather, globally.

#2. The government is powerless to do anything to stop crime. Crime just happens, and we can’t do anything to change it.

No, that is not my position. My position utterly consistent with respect to both climate and crime.

Climate: Humans do not have absolute control over the climate and weather. No one claims that they do. But human actions can and do AFFECT both climate and weather. This is observable scientific fact. And we should therefore make sure that our actions do not have drastic negative effects on both climate and weather. Which means reversing some of the behavior and activities in which we are currently engaged.

Crime: Humans do not have absolute control over human nature. People will sin, it is in their nature. God tells us this and it is obvious. And for some people that sin is expressed in the form of crime. However humans should do what they can to minimize crime in all the ways that are reasonable from prevention to enforcement and punishment. We can argue about the most effective policies to prevent and reduce crime. But no one seriously argues we should just ignore it or encourage it. Even though we know that due to human nature we will never erase crime from the face of the earth because we cannot erase sin in the form of greed, envy, rage, and so forth. Any more than we will erase poverty from the face of the earth even though we still have an obligation to help those in need.

[silentreader]

I would say God is in control also in the area of sin increasing in that He says where sin abounds grace abounds all the more. So, there is no need to be anxious about anything just as Philippians 4:6 tells us. It becomes a matter of experiencing the peace of God beyond our understanding. It's our choice.

Well i do see a difference in God being sovereign over our weather, and him giving free will to every human being.

Even though we have free will, we do not have to worry about sin abounding (getting worse) in the world anymore than worrying about the weather. According to Romans 5:20 we can be assured that - “For wherever sin exists in abundance and is multiplying and constantly expanding, that is precisely the time and place where grace is poured out in a far greater, surpassing quantity.” paraphrased. That is why I do not need be anxious over sin expanding in this world. However, if I don't believe this, I am likely to act defeated, fearful and and lose faith that God will still save as He always has. I don't see any reason for a believer to be anxious about current events although I am not completely free yet myself.

Climate change is one of many fears we don't need to live with as believers. Nor the expansion of sin. Nor politics, etc, etc. and that, to me, is how we are able to experience that peace of heart that goes beyond understanding. And as free will beings we can chose to obey and trust what God says to live in a peaceful state or not. Why would any believer chose to not live in a peaceful state of mind ? Isn't this due to worldly influences that we should be anxious about things or other Christian influences that seem to believe we can't be anxious free ?

Romans 6:1
English Standard Version

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?