Farewell, MCUSA

[temporal1]

The role of the Holy Spirit is to explain scripture, not to explain it away.

[Josh]

We have a guide that if we are born again lives within us and is ready to instruct us. Ask Him. I believe those who live intune with the Holy Spirit can and will know what is sin. I believe a major problem is a disregard for Holy Spirit guidance and not being attentive to that 'still small voice' . Psalm 25:8&9 -

Good and upright is the Lord;
    therefore he instructs sinners in his ways.
He guides the humble in what is right
    and teaches them his way.

You repeatedly post about how how people need to listen to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which sounds nice, but what do you when you have 2 (or more) people who believe they are hearing from the Holy Spirit, but disagree fundamentally?

For me I would simply follow the Bible. What people sometimes think they are being guided by, test it to the scriptures. The Holy Spirit will NEVER guide us against breaking the scriptures.

Christians have a track record of not agreeing on what “simply following the Bible” is.

[Sudsy]

Simply following the Bible has proven to be just as problematic as simply being guided by the Spirit. If you are saying that the Holy Spirit will not guide us today against a literal reading of scriptures I would disagree. I believe there are more to understand now about how to apply what scriptures say and this is not always a literal instruction. For instance, there is no need today to wash each other's feet but there are ways in our modern world to obey the principle involved. The Holy Spirit will guide us in how we can operate in our world and obey what God is desiring.

I'm sorry, but your contributions to this thread are entirely ambiguous and nebulous. how do you define what "listening to the Holy Spirit" is?

If I spend twice as much time fasting and praying than someone else, am I twice as likely to hear correctly from the Holy Spirit?

For a practical example, I completely disagree with you about foot-washing. I believe Christian should still adhere to the ordinance. I believe I'm hearing from the Holy Spirit, and you are not, in this area. Also, the scripture is firmly on my side. What are we to do about this?

There are many ways that the Holy Spirit speaks to us. I believe a willingness to hear and faith to believe God will guide us by His Spirit is crucial to knowing when God is speaking. There is much to study on this topic that I can't get into right now but here is a link that may help and one that helps me - https://www.globaldisciples.ca/blog/med ... 9EQAvD_BwE

I don't believe we can make a calculation that fasting twice as much as someone else will give us more correct guidance than them. There is more to hearing from the Holy Spirit than this means but it certainly was a means that the early church used in seeking guidance and it was about food and not what some include today that they call 'fasting'. Perhaps this link will help - https://www.cslewisinstitute.org/resour ... tian-life/

When you say 'the scripture is firmly on my side' in reference to foot-washing, then follow the Holy Spirit as you are lead. I believe we all are in a learning time of getting to know more and more clearly what the Spirit is saying to us by our practises if we are listening for Him to correct us when we mis-understand. Jesus used a needed practise of that day walking in sandals on dirt roads and washed His disciples feet to teach us a lesson. The important thing is knowing what the lesson was about. I have only been in a foot-washing service once in my younger years in Pentecostalism. What I recall as a youngster were people laughing at doing this practise and some couldn't get past the tickling sensations of another touching their feet. I would hear comments later on how ugly another's feet were. And it was not a practise throughout the year when one visited another but it was a once a year thing we did because Jesus told His disciples to do it. An ordinance.

In the MB church I attended I recall whenever we had a banquet that our pastor would go about serving in the kitchen and pouring coffee at tables as he participated as a servant would in a restaurant. I believe this was his application of the lesson being taught when Jesus washed His disciple's feet. This, to me, was a good, present day type of application of scripture. However, if a church group feels lead to do this practise more literally, that is up to them. In the experience I had with foot-washing it was more a matter of having to do this once a year to say we are being obedient to scripture. I believe the lesson here had more of an on-going application than a once a year activity as I do with remembrance of the Lord's supper and the saying of the prayer Jesus gave His disciples to say. We do have our varied understandings on ordinances.

However, to the MCUSA issue, my understandings of the scriptures at present, in this journey of learning truths, would cause me to leave the MCUSA fellowship in accommodating this kind of sinning. Like in the Corinthian church where a man was sleeping with his step-mother and they were just not dealing with him. In my spirit, I sense this is a sin that needs addressing whereas a foot-washing practise has a lesson and on-going practise to be followed but not in literal, washing of feet application.

Obviously we all only 'know in part'. However, ignoring our guide, the Holy Spirit, and not pursuing His guidance but trusting in our own human understandings is not the way to spiritual growth.

[Josh]

Most of what people consider “trusting the Holy Spirit” is actually leaning on your own mind and understanding. Such as the person who told me the Holy Spirit excused him from obeying building codes, local government, etc.

[Sudsy]

Most of what people consider “trusting the Holy Spirit” is actually leaning on your own mind and understanding. Such as the person who told me the Holy Spirit excused him from obeying building codes, local government, etc.

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths."

I believe the key to guidance from God is the part I underlined. Gal 5:25 AMP says - If we [claim to] live by the [Holy] Spirit, we must also walk by the Spirit [with personal integrity, godly character, and moral courage—our conduct empowered by the Holy Spirit].

A believer can claim to live by the Spirit but the proof will be in the fruit of a Spirit lead life.

[temporal1]

The role of the Holy Spirit is to explain scripture, not to explain it away.

There are many ways that the Holy Spirit speaks to us. ..

As a woman and nothing else, i’ve never felt slighted by God or the Holy Spirit; in scriptures, we’re assured God loves females and does not ignore us, females/women are respected and often lifted up in scriptures. We are part of His created whole.

When scriptures state women are to refrain from one aspect of church life, “who are we” to suggest this must be a mistake, therefore, ignore it? For myself, COVETNOUS comes into question wrt these different DESIRES some have.

WHY?
Is God really asking too much for women to refrain from one aspect of church order; or for those living in unrepentant sin to refrain from the ministry? Covetnous and pride. Sins.

When God is ignored, how is it possible to count the costs?
Obviously, the “joy” of prevailing in the moment is evident and celebrated. What about “The Morning After?”
With sin, the price is OFTEN not known until after, when misery sets in.

In my view, God knows very well He created females to be often more verbal, often good in formal ed, often with lots of special gifts.
Then He requests restraint in one instance. i cannot presume He does not know what He’s doing. THAT doesn’t make sense.

On MD, there were more conservative female voices contributing about their personal experiences and happiness in their lives,
not leading their husbands/churches (in formal ways, like the clergy). Happy, fulfilled women.

There’s a Catch-22 in this.
i suppose the best hope is to RECOGNIZE the dilemma and not deny it.
feminists are likely to dominate, even if they are in the minority, solely on account of noise+actions.
that doesn’t make them right, or even representative. esp not in God’s eyes.

catch-22 / noun
a dilemma or difficult circumstance from which there is no escape because of mutually conflicting or dependent conditions.

i have no doubt women have contributed greatly in your life. God’s plan and design.
this does not auto-equate to crafting church or civil laws - because “the Holy Spirit is speaking.”
this is part of why it’s very difficult to discuss the HS. it can be a go-to for “whatever i want.”

it’s crafting human laws based on human reasoning and calling it a day.
(i’m aware of Quakers and their early sincere interest in the HS.) life is challenging.

for myself, i notice where women step up, men retreat.
maybe God knew this was likely to happen, so He attempted to prevent it, by placing some specific burdens on men.
“whether you want to or not.” (that’s a valuable part of life, too.) it used to be.

in these days of so many men absent from their wives+children, i think we all need to be giving extra attention to bringing them back. churches are in primary position to lead. men thrive on personal responsibility. necessity. men go adrift without purpose.

God knows in full. He wants all, He leaves no one out.

[Sudsy]

The role of the Holy Spirit is to explain scripture, not to explain it away.

There are many ways that the Holy Spirit speaks to us. ..

As a woman and nothing else, i’ve never felt slighted by God or the Holy Spirit; in scriptures, we’re assured God loves females and does not ignore us, females/women are respected and often lifted up in scriptures. We are part of His created whole.

When scriptures state women are to refrain from one aspect of church life, “who are we” to suggest this must be a mistake, therefore, ignore it? For myself, COVETNOUS comes into question wrt these different DESIRES some have.

WHY?
Is God really asking too much for women to refrain from one aspect of church order; or for those living in unrepentant sin to refrain from the ministry? Covetnous and pride. Sins.

When God is ignored, how is it possible to count the costs?
Obviously, the “joy” of prevailing in the moment is evident and celebrated. What about “The Morning After?”
With sin, the price is OFTEN not known until after, when misery sets in.

In my view, God knows very well He created females to be often more verbal, often good in formal ed, often with lots of special gifts.
Then He requests restraint in one instance. i cannot presume He does not know what He’s doing. THAT doesn’t make sense.

On MD, there were more conservative female voices contributing about their personal experiences and happiness in their lives,
not leading their husbands/churches (in formal ways, like the clergy). Happy, fulfilled women.

There’s a Catch-22 in this.
i suppose the best hope is to RECOGNIZE the dilemma and not deny it.
feminists are likely to dominate, even if they are in the minority, solely on account of noise+actions.
that doesn’t make them right, or even representative. esp not in God’s eyes.

catch-22 / noun
a dilemma or difficult circumstance from which there is no escape because of mutually conflicting or dependent conditions.

i have no doubt women have contributed greatly in your life. God’s plan and design.
this does not auto-equate to crafting church or civil laws - because “the Holy Spirit is speaking.”
this is part of why it’s very difficult to discuss the HS. it can be a go-to for “whatever i want.”

it’s crafting human laws based on human reasoning and calling it a day.
(i’m aware of Quakers and their early sincere interest in the HS.) life is challenging.

for myself, i notice where women step up, men retreat.
maybe God knew this was likely to happen, so He attempted to prevent it, by placing some specific burdens on men.
“whether you want to or not.” (that’s a valuable part of life, too.) it used to be.

in these days of so many men absent from their wives+children, i think we all need to be giving extra attention to bringing them back. churches are in primary position to lead. men thrive on personal responsibility. necessity. men go adrift without purpose.

God knows in full. He wants all, He leaves no one out.

To the underlined - who is suggesting God made a mistake by leading Paul to say what he said to women in the Corinthian early church ? I'm certainly not. This is a matter of whether or not God was giving direction through Paul for a specific reason at a specific time or whether what Paul said was to put a restraint on women in leadership for the rest of time. It is a matter of 'rightly dividing the word of truth'.

Paul also told slaves how to treat their masters in two NT texts. Does this support having slaves so they can treat their masters correctly ? I would think most would say absolutely not. So there were scriptures that don't apply the same way in our culture.

Anyway, got to go.

[Only an Anz]

Where are you these days? (in terms of congregation/conference)

I am in Texas where no conservative/moderate Mennonite churches or conferences are. I could even deal with a slightly progressive group if they were honestly living out their faith and being sensitive to others of differing positions.

I may be wrong, but I always felt there was a "tolerable" way of dealing with this. If a church wanted to accept a person not living within the Membership Guidelines, they could accept them as in church membership but not include them into conference or denomination membership.

If I was setting up a congregation right now, I would set up a two step membership process. One for the local church, then after that, another step to join the conference. This would then encourage those who wanted to hold conference positions like delegate or other offices to live within the membership guidelines, whatever those were. I would not count local members towards delegate representation, only those who have "joined" the conference.

I presented this to some in MCUSA and no one seemed interested. Both sides were determined to force the other side to accept everything they felt was needed for membership, both inclusion and exclusion.

Sorry to revive an old thread but where in TX? I grew up there - certainly are Mennos in Central TX

[Ken]

Where are you these days? (in terms of congregation/conference)

I am in Texas where no conservative/moderate Mennonite churches or conferences are. I could even deal with a slightly progressive group if they were honestly living out their faith and being sensitive to others of differing positions.

I may be wrong, but I always felt there was a "tolerable" way of dealing with this. If a church wanted to accept a person not living within the Membership Guidelines, they could accept them as in church membership but not include them into conference or denomination membership.

If I was setting up a congregation right now, I would set up a two step membership process. One for the local church, then after that, another step to join the conference. This would then encourage those who wanted to hold conference positions like delegate or other offices to live within the membership guidelines, whatever those were. I would not count local members towards delegate representation, only those who have "joined" the conference.

I presented this to some in MCUSA and no one seemed interested. Both sides were determined to force the other side to accept everything they felt was needed for membership, both inclusion and exclusion.

Sorry to revive an old thread but where in TX? I grew up there - certainly are Mennos in Central TX

There is a growing MCUSA church where I used to live in Waco. But being a college town with lots of young people it is probably tilted more in the liberal direction that many here would want. https://www.hopefellowshipwaco.org/

According to the church directory on the MCUSA web site there are 25 MCUSA churches in Texas. Which I suspect is more congregations than any other flavor of Mennonite has in Texas.

I don't know about MCUSA, but I doubt that any conference of Mennonites anywhere will go for an a la carte version of their statement of faith or beliefs. Nor probably will any other denomination.

[Only an Anz]

I am in Texas where no conservative/moderate Mennonite churches or conferences are. I could even deal with a slightly progressive group if they were honestly living out their faith and being sensitive to others of differing positions.

I may be wrong, but I always felt there was a "tolerable" way of dealing with this. If a church wanted to accept a person not living within the Membership Guidelines, they could accept them as in church membership but not include them into conference or denomination membership.

If I was setting up a congregation right now, I would set up a two step membership process. One for the local church, then after that, another step to join the conference. This would then encourage those who wanted to hold conference positions like delegate or other offices to live within the membership guidelines, whatever those were. I would not count local members towards delegate representation, only those who have "joined" the conference.

I presented this to some in MCUSA and no one seemed interested. Both sides were determined to force the other side to accept everything they felt was needed for membership, both inclusion and exclusion.

Sorry to revive an old thread but where in TX? I grew up there - certainly are Mennos in Central TX

There is an MCUSA church where I used to live in Waco. But being a college town with lots of young people it is probably tilted more in the liberal direction that many here would want. https://www.hopefellowshipwaco.org/

According to the church directory on the MCUSA web site there are 25 MCUSA churches in Texas. Which I suspect is more congregations than any other flavor of Mennonite has in Texas.

I am much more familiar with Beachy & Eastern. There's a few congregations of each in the lone star state

Eastern is well...Eastern, but IME the Beachy groups in TX have some variety. There's a quite conservative https://gameo.org/index.php?title=Livin ... exas,_USA)group just up the road from some of my family, while some groups are more open.