Southern Baptists lose 1.1 million members in the past 3 years

[Ken]

The SBC is transitioning to becoming a mainline denomination. (Examples are women pastors and adopting a more affirming lgbt stance.)

I wouldn’t call the subsequent shrinkage a matter of God’s blessing or cursing, but simple sociology. For whatever reason, mainline style denominations shrink.

The command in our scripture was clear for women to be silent in church.
Then it is pushed - "No they should be able to teach Sunday School".
Then it is pushed - "No they should be able to speak in adult Sunday School".
Then it is pushed - "They have a right to speak over their husbands".
Then it is pushed - "They have the right to tell their pastor husband what to preach".
Then it is pushed - "They have the right to push, persuade, and create agendas for the bros in the church".
Then it is pushed - "They have a place in a vote with the brothers meeting".
Then it is pushed - "They can become pastors."

SO apparently, somewhere along the line the Bible was compromised.
Also, the teachings of the earliest Christians.

It's very clear their role. People just don't like to admit the Bible doesn't yield to their "modern feminism".
Correction & Reproof.

We need to use the Bible.

If the written text is so important to Christianity, why didn't Jesus (who was a very literate man) sit down and write a comprehensive holy text of his teachings for future generations? Jesus left not one sentence or paragraph of his own written text for future generations. Even Paul did not write any sort of single comprehensive holy text. He wrote various letters to different congregations, some of which were later consolidated, some of which were no doubt lost, and some of which may not have been written by him at all.

Christianity is more than just written texts. Texts are important but they are not the only aspect of Christianity. It is also a living religion. If women say they are being called to the ministry by the Holy Spirit are you calling them liars because of a text written 2000 years ago by someone who never met Jesus either except in revelation?

By contrast, Muslims believe that the entire Quran was revealed to and set out in text by their prophet Muhammad.

[barnhart]

Ken, I think you are right to identify a philosophical difference between the sacred texts of Christians and Muslims, but I don't think it is continuing revelation.

[Ken]

Ken, I think you are right to identify a philosophical difference between the sacred texts of Christians and Muslims, but I don't think it is continuing revelation.

The difference I am pointing out is that Islam traces its holy texts straight back to the actual writings of Muhammad and they were all contemporary with the founding of the religion. By contrast Christianity has no actual writings of Jesus. And it wasn't for lack of ability. The Roman world at the time of Christ was the most literate society in history and would continue to be the high water mark in literacy for probably another 1500 years or more. At least until the Renaissance and Reformation. I'm just asking the question that if the written word was so important to Jesus and so fundamental to Christianity, why didn't Jesus leave any of his own? For that matter, did Jesus himself teach people to study and parse holy texts word by word and phrase by phrase? That is what the Pharisees did with their emphasis on Talmudic studies and parsing of texts which Jesus seemed to have little patience with.

[Soloist]

Ken, I think you are right to identify a philosophical difference between the sacred texts of Christians and Muslims, but I don't think it is continuing revelation.

The difference I am pointing out is that Islam traces its holy texts straight back to the actual writings of Muhammad and they were all contemporary with the founding of the religion. By contrast Christianity has no actual writings of Jesus. And it wasn't for lack of ability. The Roman world at the time of Christ was the most literate society in history and would continue to be the high water mark in literacy for probably another 1500 years or more. At least until the Renaissance and Reformation. I'm just asking the question that if the written word was so important to Jesus and so fundamental to Christianity, why didn't Jesus leave any of his own? For that matter, did Jesus himself teach people to study and parse holy texts word by word and phrase by phrase? That is what the Pharisees did with their emphasis on Talmudic studies and parsing of texts which Jesus seemed to have little patience with.

You are misinformed. Muhammad did not write down the Quran. The actual writings were compiled by his followers and then assembled into a copy by Abu Bakr. Later Caliph Uthman determined there were differences in opinion as to what was correct and what was not true sayings of Muhammad and compiled a "corrected" version of the Quran. This resulted (according to their histories) several main copies sent to the 5 or 6 major cities. These copies were never found but rather copies dating from closer to 800 AD were found. There were significant differences between each one.
Today we have over 27 different copies of the Quran in circulation and while they are not significant differences, the Muslims say that every jot and tittle is the same as the original. Per the Hadiths, a goat had even ate some of the early texts so... In terms of tracing holy text, the Muslims are not in anyway superior to Christianity.

[temporal1]

Others present are more knoowledgeable, but, my understanding is, although we love scriptures/the Holy Bible, even with these gifts, they are nothing without the blessing of the Holy Spirit. The Bible will escape readers, confound readers, stupefy and anger, without the blessing of the Holy Spirit.

For believers, we know our faith is not of our own doing. We are humbled with gratitude.

For myself, my own experience, although i WANTED to understand and accept the Bible, i SENSED it had answers for me, until i was in my early 40’s, they puzzled me. i could not understand. i wanted to. i tried. “nothing,” really.

Then, that changed. i don’t recall a moment or day. But in one period of my life, when our children were still young, a change.
What i could not see before began to come to Life on the pages. The pages seemed to glow with Light. My eyes were open, and my heart filled with peace and joy. It was kind of euphoric (no drugs). It lasted for years. The memories are with me.

i don’t have that special level of euphoria (for lack of better word) but faith remains, trust. i was changed, i am changed.
At this time i was baptised, it is a joyful memory. My parents did not believe in infant baptism, not always an easy path.

If you pray (i recommend it) pray for the Holy Spirit to open your eyes, to guide your words and actions all thru your days.
Your prayers will not go unheard.

Human reasoning, all of science+wisdom, are not enough. “For we see through a glass darkly,” AT ALL TIMES, no matter who we are. i specially appreciate scientists, post-doctorates, others with advanced degrees and obvious high intellect, who know so much, yet remain humble, saying the more they know, the more they believe in God, the Creator. “The more you know, the more you realize you don’t know.” i grew up on the doostep of a large state university, i’ve enjoyed many highly educated people. Those who have been blessed by the Holy Spirit are remarkable, specially gifted. Humble believers. Some like these are present on this forum.
i’m not convinced you know which room you’re in. i pray you are one day changed. it won’t be all your own doing.
or on your own time frame. pray for the blessing. your logic is not sufficient.

If by some awful destiny Bibles suddenly and completely disappeared, the Holy Spirit would provide. Truth will not be defeated.

Interesting how you point out “Jesus wrote nothing” (that is known or remains). There is no accident or oversight. Pray for faith.
Submit to the Holy Spirit, pray for your eyes to see.

[Josh]

Christianity is more than just written texts. Texts are important but they are not the only aspect of Christianity. It is also a living religion. If women say they are being called to the ministry by the Holy Spirit are you calling them liars because of a text written 2000 years ago by someone who never met Jesus either except in revelation?

You seem to be asserting that the words of Paul are not part of scripture and not inspired, and do not need to be followed, and the whims of modern day man who claims he "hears the Holy Spirit" have more authority than the books of the New Testament.

This has not been the position of Christianity or the church for 2,000 years. If you wish to create a new religion, please do not call it Christianity.

[ohio jones]

Christianity is more than just written texts. Texts are important but they are not the only aspect of Christianity. It is also a living religion. If women say they are being called to the ministry by the Holy Spirit are you calling them liars because of a text written 2000 years ago by someone who never met Jesus either except in revelation?

You seem to be asserting that the words of Paul are not part of scripture and not inspired, and do not need to be followed, and the whims of modern day man who claims he "hears the Holy Spirit" have more authority than the books of the New Testament.

This has not been the position of Christianity or the church for 2,000 years. If you wish to create a new religion, please do not call it Christianity.

The role of the Holy Spirit is to explain scripture, not to explain it away.

[Chris]

The SBC is transitioning to becoming a mainline denomination. (Examples are women pastors and adopting a more affirming lgbt stance.)

I wouldn’t call the subsequent shrinkage a matter of God’s blessing or cursing, but simple sociology. For whatever reason, mainline style denominations shrink.

The command in our scripture was clear for women to be silent in church.
Then it is pushed - "No they should be able to teach Sunday School".
Then it is pushed - "No they should be able to speak in adult Sunday School".
Then it is pushed - "They have a right to speak over their husbands".
Then it is pushed - "They have the right to tell their pastor husband what to preach".
Then it is pushed - "They have the right to push, persuade, and create agendas for the bros in the church".
Then it is pushed - "They have a place in a vote with the brothers meeting".
Then it is pushed - "They can become pastors."

SO apparently, somewhere along the line the Bible was compromised.
Also, the teachings of the earliest Christians.

It's very clear their role. People just don't like to admit the Bible doesn't yield to their "modern feminism".
Correction & Reproof.

We need to use the Bible.

If the written text is so important to Christianity, why didn't Jesus (who was a very literate man) sit down and write a comprehensive holy text of his teachings for future generations? Jesus left not one sentence or paragraph of his own written text for future generations. Even Paul did not write any sort of single comprehensive holy text. He wrote various letters to different congregations, some of which were later consolidated, some of which were no doubt lost, and some of which may not have been written by him at all.

Christianity is more than just written texts. Texts are important but they are not the only aspect of Christianity. It is also a living religion. If women say they are being called to the ministry by the Holy Spirit are you calling them liars because of a text written 2000 years ago by someone who never met Jesus either except in revelation?

By contrast, Muslims believe that the entire Quran was revealed to and set out in text by their prophet Muhammad.

The texts are written by his church, which is very important. They are for correction and reproof, so that when people stray and marginalize the texts, the text itself corrects.

The torah was dictated from the words of God. The various authors of the New Testament gives proof of multiple witnesses which gives it more credibility. Rather than lets say the Book of Mormon, who had one single witness.

Yes the church is more than the texts, but never against the texts, and never compromising the texts.

[Sudsy]

God is not restricted by what He guided Paul to write to those believers in that time and place. I believe there were specific reasons why God had Paul write what he wrote regarding women in that time and place and keeping silent. I believe our guide, as was Paul's is the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit choses to further God's Kingdom today by using women, our applications of scriptures will not stop Him. It is too obvious to me that God is using women today in pastor and teaching roles and if some chose to keep women silent, that is their choice.

Personally, I have been blessed and taught spiritual truths by women and so glad that God is using women to further His Kingdom today. I believe we should be thankful that women in our culture have been given the same opportunities as men to study the scriptures and are being used to bring many into Kingdom Life.

That is one area I think Pentecostalism, the Salvation Army and others got right. God will use those who are willing to be used of Him as He desires regardless of their sex.

[temporal1]

The role of the Holy Spirit is to explain scripture, not to explain it away.