Modern Day Pharisees

[GaryK]

You may feel that people are always talking just about ideologies. I don't.

And even when we are talking about sinful ideologies, how should we do that, as Christians who want to follow the example of Jesus? How is that different from the kind of thing that goes viral among worldly people on social media?

You made it appear that what I was saying had to do with being fed up with sinners. You did this by asking if Jesus gets fed up with sinners. To imply such things in order to make your point is disingenuous at best and dishonest at worst. That's why I'm asking you to take the statement below back.

Gary, that's a good example, isn't it? You are "fed up" with me, and you want everyone to know it.

But you didn't respond to what I said. I think people really are saying that they are "fed up" with people, not just ideologies, and they are sometimes doing that on a very personal level. "Do you know what manner of woman" - but aren't you doing that to me here? And each time you do that, you seem to be swatting away what I said in the last post.

That's what you are asking me to take back. I don't think I am being disingenuous or dishonest.

What gets lost in the process is this - we aren't looking at Scripture together to see what it says and what it teaches us about how we, as Christians, should act. That's hard to do while pointing fingers and taking offense.

Boot, It's simply untrue that I didn't respond to what you said. You have said this numerous times. That's a false accusation. I always quote what I'm responding to. I am willing to call you out on misrepresentations of what I say, which you clearly did in what we are discussing here.

I think you knew full well that my point wasn't about being fed up with sinners, yet you responded as though that was my point. That's wrong and I think you know it.

In essence you turned it into the point that you have been making all along that there are people on MN who are Pharisaical in some of the things they post by targeting sinners. I was simply pointing out that there can be other reasons for using dramatic language such as being fed up with sinful ideologies.

I'll ask this question again, which I don't believe you have responded to:

If you are tired of seeing Phariseeism (an anti-God ideology) on MN and have attempted to expose it as you have, then why can't other Christians do the same with other sinful ideologies? And if you want others to believe that you can expose Phariseeism on MN and not have anyone in particular in mind then why don't you believe other Christians can do the same thing with other sinful ideologies?

[GaryK]

You may feel that people are always talking just about ideologies. I don't.

And even when we are talking about sinful ideologies, how should we do that, as Christians who want to follow the example of Jesus? How is that different from the kind of thing that goes viral among worldly people on social media?

You made it appear that what I was saying had to do with being fed up with sinners. You did this by asking if Jesus gets fed up with sinners. To imply such things in order to make your point is disingenuous at best and dishonest at worst. That's why I'm asking you to take the statement below back.

Gary, that's a good example, isn't it? You are "fed up" with me, and you want everyone to know it.

But you didn't respond to what I said. I think people really are saying that they are "fed up" with people, not just ideologies, and they are sometimes doing that on a very personal level. "Do you know what manner of woman" - but aren't you doing that to me here? And each time you do that, you seem to be swatting away what I said in the last post.

Just in case you missed it: And by the way, the "do you know what manner of woman" phrase wasn't even in the post we're discussing.

There is a 4th category:

4. Jesus talked to people who claimed to love and follow God but actually did not do so. They were highly “religious” yet were rank sinners.

I believe such people exist today. They may claim to be “Christian” yet promote sin and false doctrine.

I agree.

In the New Testament, the people Jesus puts into that category is primarily the Pharisees, Sadducees, and teachers of the law. And the sins he calls them out for are the ones shown in lists that have appeared in this thread. Including the way they treated sinners and other "out groups".

Jesus took that kind of sin just as seriously as other sins. And those people were constantly warning against sin and false doctrine, you see that in so many of the encounters with Jesus. "Does he not know what kind of woman?" "Eats with sinners and tax collectors ..." etc.

I personally don't think there is anyone on MN who would say things like "Does he not know what kind of woman?" "Eats with sinners and tax collectors ..." etc.

If you think there are people like that on MN, I would encourage you to PM them and confront them about it.

[GaryK]

I think Christians should be fed up with anti-God ideologies that are driving humanity further away from God and when given the opportunity should talk negatively about them.

1 John 2:15-17 NKJV 15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

Galatians 5:17-21 NKJV 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Was Paul being Pharisaical by speaking out against worldly sins and by saying that people who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of heaven? According to your standards, I think the answer is yes.

According to my standards, the answer is "no". Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

We should speak against sin. Jesus clearly did. We should do it like Jesus. And when we think about sin, we should look at the whole range of sin, including sins that are more common among Christians. That list from Galatians gives quite a few examples.

When we talk about sin or sinners, we should look at the list that follows the one that you quoted:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

That's hard. It requires wisdom and discernment. I definitely get it wrong quite often. But this is what Scripture calls us to do.

John says we are not to love the world and I think we can take from that that it's okay as Christians to strongly oppose what the world stands for and to speak out against it. Paul is clearly speaking about worldly sinners when he says that they won't inherit the kingdom of God.

I take from this that it is okay to do the same on MN and it's not Pharisaical to do so.

[Bootstrap]

You made it appear that what I was saying had to do with being fed up with sinners. You did this by asking if Jesus gets fed up with sinners. To imply such things in order to make your point is disingenuous at best and dishonest at worst. That's why I'm asking you to take the statement below back.

Gary, that's a good example, isn't it? You are "fed up" with me, and you want everyone to know it.

But you didn't respond to what I said. I think people really are saying that they are "fed up" with people, not just ideologies, and they are sometimes doing that on a very personal level. "Do you know what manner of woman" - but aren't you doing that to me here? And each time you do that, you seem to be swatting away what I said in the last post.

That's what you are asking me to take back. I don't think I am being disingenuous or dishonest.

What gets lost in the process is this - we aren't looking at Scripture together to see what it says and what it teaches us about how we, as Christians, should act. That's hard to do while pointing fingers and taking offense.

Boot, It's simply untrue that I didn't respond to what you said. You have said this numerous times. That's a false accusation. I always quote what I'm responding to.

Quoting is not the same thing as responding. Often, you quote something, find something to take offense at - often what you think I must be thinking rather than what I actually said - and ignore most of what I said. By taking offense, it seems urgent, but it's really a distraction from actually discussing the subject. If you want to know what I really think, that's in the main points I am making. You don't have to read tea leaves, I'm not that subtle.

For instance, in the above, my main point is that people really are saying they are "fed up" with people sometimes, very personally, tearing people down the same way the Pharisees did. That's different from what Jesus did. Do you agree or disagree with that? Do you sometimes see Christians doing that in ways that are really problematic?

[Bootstrap]

We should speak against sin. Jesus clearly did. We should do it like Jesus. And when we think about sin, we should look at the whole range of sin, including sins that are more common among Christians. That list from Galatians gives quite a few examples.

When we talk about sin or sinners, we should look at the list that follows the one that you quoted:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

That's hard. It requires wisdom and discernment. I definitely get it wrong quite often. But this is what Scripture calls us to do.

John says we are not to love the world and I think we can take from that that it's okay as Christians to strongly oppose what the world stands for and to speak out against it. Paul is clearly speaking about worldly sinners when he says that they won't inherit the kingdom of God.

I take from this that it is okay to do the same on MN and it's not Pharisaical to do so.

We should not love the world or the things in the world. But we should embrace the ministry of reconciliation, engaging the world as Jesus did.

We do strongly oppose what the world stands for and speak out against it. There are Pharisaical ways to do that. There are Christlike ways to do that. That's why looking carefully at Scripture and learning from it is valuable. The sins of the Pharisees are just as worldly as any other sins.

[GaryK]

Gary, that's a good example, isn't it? You are "fed up" with me, and you want everyone to know it.

But you didn't respond to what I said. I think people really are saying that they are "fed up" with people, not just ideologies, and they are sometimes doing that on a very personal level. "Do you know what manner of woman" - but aren't you doing that to me here? And each time you do that, you seem to be swatting away what I said in the last post.

That's what you are asking me to take back. I don't think I am being disingenuous or dishonest.

What gets lost in the process is this - we aren't looking at Scripture together to see what it says and what it teaches us about how we, as Christians, should act. That's hard to do while pointing fingers and taking offense.

Boot, It's simply untrue that I didn't respond to what you said. You have said this numerous times. That's a false accusation. I always quote what I'm responding to.

Quoting is not the same thing as responding. Often, you quote something, find something to take offense at - often what you think I must be thinking rather than what I actually said - and ignore most of what I said. By taking offense, it seems urgent, but it's really a distraction from actually discussing the subject. If you want to know what I really think, that's in the main points I am making. You don't have to read tea leaves, I'm not that subtle.

For instance, in the above, my main point is that people really are saying they are "fed up" with people sometimes, very personally, tearing people down the same way the Pharisees did. That's different from what Jesus did. Do you agree or disagree with that? Do you sometimes see Christians doing that in ways that are really problematic?

Here is the post in question:

Expose it? Is sin so well hidden in America that we need to expose it? And do we have the inside scoop on the sins of people we have only heard of third hand? Is it news to everyone that LGBTQ is an issue in the United States so that we have to remind ourselves regularly? Aren't there other sins, often among our own churches, that are much better hidden? Do we want to start "exposing" THOSE sins here? Would we do that with the same vigor that we use to "expose" sins of strangers we have never met?

When Jesus and the prophets exposed sin, whose sin did they focus on?

Fed up? Is Jesus "fed up" with sinners? Doesn't "fed up" make it mostly about our feelings about them? Does Jesus encourage his followers to be "fed up" with the world? Grieving is appropriate and biblical, I think, but it's a different thing.

I think we see Jesus and Paul primarily telling people how to seek first the Kingdom of God. They don't dwell on pointing out the sins of others. There was PLENTY of sin to point out. Emperor worship. Pagan gods. And the pagans were running the country. Plenty of sexual abominations back then, too. And yet, we don't see Jesus speaking that way. When Paul addresses sexual sin, he uses far less dramatic language than I see here, and he is never depersonalizing people.

What I don't see much of is:

1. Asking how we, as strangers and aliens in this world, live our lives in holiness and love.
2. Asking how we explain Jesus to a world that is far from him, and how we reach out to people.
3. Asking how we explain the biblical view of things like sexuality to those who do not understand.
4. Asking how we make sure that we show the same love and compassion for others that Jesus did when we reach out to sinners.
5. Asking how we can invite God to show us our own sins and to make us holy.

Those questions aren't the ones we talk about here. But I think they are some of the central questions for Christians who seek first the Kingdom of God.

Please show us where in this post you say anything about "I think people really are saying that they are "fed up" with people, which is what you said I didn't respond to. It's not there. You may have said it in a later post but I've been focused on what I believe was a deliberate misrepresentation of what I said about people on MN being fed up with anti-God ideologies in order to continue what you've been attempting to expose, which is, supposed Phariseeism on MN.

Please focus on the deliberate misrepresentation of what I said. Are you denying that you did that?

[GaryK]

We should speak against sin. Jesus clearly did. We should do it like Jesus. And when we think about sin, we should look at the whole range of sin, including sins that are more common among Christians. That list from Galatians gives quite a few examples.

When we talk about sin or sinners, we should look at the list that follows the one that you quoted:



That's hard. It requires wisdom and discernment. I definitely get it wrong quite often. But this is what Scripture calls us to do.

John says we are not to love the world and I think we can take from that that it's okay as Christians to strongly oppose what the world stands for and to speak out against it. Paul is clearly speaking about worldly sinners when he says that they won't inherit the kingdom of God.

I take from this that it is okay to do the same on MN and it's not Pharisaical to do so.

We should not love the world or the things in the world. But we should embrace the ministry of reconciliation, engaging the world as Jesus did.

We do strongly oppose what the world stands for and speak out against it. There are Pharisaical ways to do that. There are Christlike ways to do that. That's why looking carefully at Scripture and learning from it is valuable. The sins of the Pharisees are just as worldly as any other sins.

Until you give us specific examples of posts on MN that strongly oppose what the world stands for and of speaking out against it that was done in Pharisaical ways, we can't determine if it was Pharisaical. You seem to want us just to take your word for it that it's true. I specifically responded to some not as vague things you see on MN and in none of those things did I see Phariseeism.

Valerie has made it clear what the purpose of this thread is.

I think what a lot of Christians get fed up with is the jump to accusations of a Pharisee spirit without realizing the heart of Christians that want to reach the lost and care about their soul. I think Satan himself is using certain Christians to silence the church to be able to contend for the faith in a way that is loving but they're so afraid of accusations of being a Pharisee that they have become more timid. Or even influenced.

I think we have Revelations 2 and 3 to walk through to see how Jesus was not at this point speaking to his own Jews, but to the churches to point out what they were doing right and what they were doing wrong.

[GaryK]

How do you respond to

Jud 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jud 1:8  Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

These are members of their congregations, not out in the world. And yes, this language is very dramatic and strong. It is also directed at members of the church.

Here it is with a little more context:

3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

I think the passage makes it quite clear that these people are most certainly in the world - they just slipped into the church unnoticed. They are ungodly people. Such people are not part of God's Kingdom. They are no different than those without the church who have agendas that take people farther and farther away from God, except for the fact that they are trying to take people within the church away from God.

All the more reason to make clear demarcations between the church and the world and to not let what the world thinks about the church dictate our response to sin and those who actively promote it.

[Bootstrap]

John says we are not to love the world and I think we can take from that that it's okay as Christians to strongly oppose what the world stands for and to speak out against it. Paul is clearly speaking about worldly sinners when he says that they won't inherit the kingdom of God.

I take from this that it is okay to do the same on MN and it's not Pharisaical to do so.

We should not love the world or the things in the world. But we should embrace the ministry of reconciliation, engaging the world as Jesus did.

We do strongly oppose what the world stands for and speak out against it. There are Pharisaical ways to do that. There are Christlike ways to do that. That's why looking carefully at Scripture and learning from it is valuable. The sins of the Pharisees are just as worldly as any other sins.

Here's the pattern I am talking about. I just highlighted the part you are not responding to above, in blue.

Now let's go on to the place where you take offense:

Until you give us specific examples of posts on MN that strongly oppose what the world stands for and of speaking out against it that was done in Pharisaical ways, we can't determine if it was Pharisaical. You seem to want us just to take your word for it that it's true. I specifically responded to some not as vague things you see on MN and in none of those things did I see Phariseeism.

Why? You are intentionally turning this into "us versus them", not "what does the Bible teach?" You keep turning it back to attacks on me and away from discussing what the Bible says.

Frankly, I was expecting this to be more like a Bible study, I wasn't expecting to hit a nerve like this. I never planned on pointing to any specific posts or people, and I said that there were some posts that motivated me only because you asked me. I'm asking you to take the word of God's opinion on how Christians should act, and on how that is different from Phariseeism. If I misunderstand anything in the Bible, feel free to correct me.

Do you believe that the sins of the Pharisees are just as worldly as other sins? Do you think that Jesus took them seriously? If so, how do you think we as Christians, should apply that in our lives? How does that affect the way we post on forums? I think that's a question you are avoiding with a LOT of energy.

[Soloist]

Why? I never planned on pointing to any specific posts or people. I'm asking you to take the word of God's opinion on how Christians should act, and on how that is different from Phariseeism. Frankly, I was expecting this to be more like a Bible study, I wasn't expecting to hit a nerve like this.

Do you believe that the sins of the Pharisees are just as worldly as other sins? Do you think that Jesus took them seriously? If so, how do you think we as Christians, should apply that in our lives? How does that affect the way we post on forums? I think that's a question you are avoiding with a LOT of energy.

Sounds like you have the makings of a great thread. If you don’t want to participate in this one, you certainly don’t have to.

Maybe posting some actual examples to see where we may be similar or make distinctions.