Modern Day Pharisees

[Szdfan]

I wrote a letter to my now 78 year old gay uncle about 15 years ago letting him know that I do not believe God is pleased with his lifestyle and the gay relationship he was in. Just a few months ago he was at a family reunion and publicly brought up his gayness and asked the group if he would be allowed to bring his partner to future reunions. He said he would like for us to talk to him about it and came up to me and told me that he wants me to talk to him about it. I made clear to him that I do not agree with his assertion that God has ordained for him and his partner to be in a relationship. I assured him of my love for him, which he said he never doubted. Since then he texted me for some contact information, which I gave and again told him I love him, to which he responded, "I love you more than you will ever know".

I very much appreciate this story.

I have also struggled with showing love to relatives who are LGBTQ. It's challenging, but it's really important.

I also appreciate this story. Thanks for sharing, Gary.

[Josh]

I have generally reserved any “judgmentalism” for people who are already religious and claiming to be good followers of Christ, yet seem to excuse living in obvious sin.

An example was someone at a Bible study who decided to start cohabiting with his girlfriend. This wasn’t acceptable and several of the brethren and sisters let it be known.

Most of our politicians claim to be Christians. I feel no qualms about expecting them to thus live a Christian life.

[GaryK]

I agree that the NT writers should be our guide. Hence my summaries in this thread.

I think that modern Christians can sometimes have extremely judgmental attitudes that the NT writers preached against more loudly than just about anything else.

Do you have anything to say about the point I was making about most of the NT writers being considered to have extremely judgmental attitudes by a growing number of Christians today?

Why, once again, change the subject to something that is pretty much the opposite of the point I was making? That gets tiring.

Yes, I was trying to respond to your point. I think that sometimes people may think that the New Testament looks like the judgmentalism they see in some religious people, but that's not what they will see if they look at Jesus.

Then again, I think that many people realize that this kind of judgmentalism is not what you see in Jesus. Of course, Jesus did not soft peddle holiness, but the way he treated sinners was striking. To me, following that example is the best way to show why we believe Scripture is a reliable guide for our lives.

That's why I said what I did. I think I was responding to the same subject. Maybe you and I disagree about how much judgmentalism and sometimes outright hostility is out there. I don't think people are just blowing smoke when they point that out.

When you stated that modern Christians can sometimes have extremely judgmental attitudes, were you referring to the same Christians that I mentioned would probably say that the NT writers had extremely judgmental attitudes? If you were, then I misunderstood what you were saying. I took you to be saying, as you have been all along, that modern Christians, like some on MN, can have extremely judgmental attitudes.

[Bootstrap]

How do you respond to

Jud 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jud 1:8  Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

These are members of their congregations, not out in the world. And yes, this language is very dramatic and strong. It is also directed at members of the church.

Here it is with a little more context:

3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

8 In the very same way, on the strength of their dreams these ungodly people pollute their own bodies, reject authority and heap abuse on celestial beings. 9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them.

Let's take a look at the other passage:

2Pe 2:12  But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

If I read these, I would think quite negatively about the speaker and what was thought of me. How are you quantifying a difference between what the Apostles said and what you are eluding to?

This is about false prophets among the church. Here's how that chapter starts:

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

[Soloist]

Missed the point boot

How are you quantifying a difference between what the Apostles said and what you are eluding to?

Either way I again see little profit in discussing anything with you because you act as though there is never fault in your own actions despite having it pointed out.

[Bootstrap]

Missed the point boot

How are you quantifying a difference between what the Apostles said and what you are eluding to?

I think I answered your question. It's not a difference in quantity, they aren't doing the same thing. They are warning about people in their own fellowship, sin within the church, clearly within their jurisdiction. And even in that situation, the New Testament is often much gentler than that - read 2 Corinthians carefully, for instance.

You may have a different point that you want to make. Could you simply make it yourself?

[Bootstrap]

You may feel that people are always talking just about ideologies. I don't.

And even when we are talking about sinful ideologies, how should we do that, as Christians who want to follow the example of Jesus? How is that different from the kind of thing that goes viral among worldly people on social media?

You made it appear that what I was saying had to do with being fed up with sinners. You did this by asking if Jesus gets fed up with sinners. To imply such things in order to make your point is disingenuous at best and dishonest at worst. That's why I'm asking you to take the statement below back.

Gary, that's a good example, isn't it? You are "fed up" with me, and you want everyone to know it.

But you didn't respond to what I said. I think people really are saying that they are "fed up" with people, not just ideologies, and they are sometimes doing that on a very personal level. "Do you know what manner of woman" - but aren't you doing that to me here? And each time you do that, you seem to be swatting away what I said in the last post.

That's what you are asking me to take back. I don't think I am being disingenuous or dishonest.

What gets lost in the process is this - we aren't looking at Scripture together to see what it says and what it teaches us about how we, as Christians, should act. That's hard to do while pointing fingers and taking offense.

[Bootstrap]

I think Christians should be fed up with anti-God ideologies that are driving humanity further away from God and when given the opportunity should talk negatively about them.

1 John 2:15-17 NKJV 15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

Galatians 5:17-21 NKJV 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Was Paul being Pharisaical by speaking out against worldly sins and by saying that people who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of heaven? According to your standards, I think the answer is yes.

According to my standards, the answer is "no". Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

We should speak against sin. Jesus clearly did. We should do it like Jesus. And when we think about sin, we should look at the whole range of sin, including sins that are more common among Christians. That list from Galatians gives quite a few examples.

When we talk about sin or sinners, we should look at the list that follows the one that you quoted:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

That's hard. It requires wisdom and discernment. I definitely get it wrong quite often. But this is what Scripture calls us to do.

[Valerie]

You may feel that people are always talking just about ideologies. I don't.

And even when we are talking about sinful ideologies, how should we do that, as Christians who want to follow the example of Jesus? How is that different from the kind of thing that goes viral among worldly people on social media?

You made it appear that what I was saying had to do with being fed up with sinners. You did this by asking if Jesus gets fed up with sinners. To imply such things in order to make your point is disingenuous at best and dishonest at worst. That's why I'm asking you to take the statement below back.

Gary, that's a good example, isn't it? You are "fed up" with me, and you want everyone to know it.

But you didn't respond to what I said. I think people really are saying that they are "fed up" with people, not just ideologies, and they are sometimes doing that on a very personal level. "Do you know what manner of woman" - but aren't you doing that to me here? And each time you do that, you seem to be swatting away what I said in the last post.

That's what you are asking me to take back. I don't think I am being disingenuous or dishonest.

What gets lost in the process is this - we aren't looking at Scripture together to see what it says and what it teaches us about how we, as Christians, should act. That's hard to do while pointing fingers and taking offense.

Well even Jesus said, "how long must I suffer you?"

The question was asked how we deal with this in day to day life and Gary shared a wonderful way of handling it. His heart for his uncle. I think what a lot of Christians get fed up with is the jump to accusations of a Pharisee spirit without realizing the heart of Christians that want to reach the lost and care about their soul. I think Satan himself is using certain Christians to silence the church to be able to contend for the faith in a way that is loving but they're so afraid of accusations of being a Pharisee that they have become more timid. Or even influenced.

I think we have Revelations 2 and 3 to walk through to see how Jesus was not at this point speaking to his own Jews, but to the churches to point out what they were doing right and what they were doing wrong.

[Bootstrap]

The question was asked how we deal with this in day to day life and Gary shared a wonderful way of handling it. His heart for his uncle.

I agree.

I think what a lot of Christians get fed up with is the jump to accusations of a Pharisee spirit without realizing the heart of Christians that want to reach the lost and care about their soul. I think Satan himself is using certain Christians to silence the church to be able to contend for the faith in a way that is loving but they're so afraid of accusations of being a Pharisee that they have become more timid. Or even influenced.

I think that is happening largely within the church. People argue that Jesus was loving to everyone, and he would love LGBTQ people too (true), that's simply who they are, and that he therefore approves of gay marriage (false).

I think we have to speak clearly against sin, but we need to do it as Jesus did. We need to be able to tell the woman caught in adultery both "neither do I condemn you" and "go and sin no more".

I think we have Revelations 2 and 3 to walk through to see how Jesus was not at this point speaking to his own Jews, but to the churches to point out what they were doing right and what they were doing wrong.

I agree. In general, the people who are trying to silence me on this topic are in the church. They will tell me that the verses that speak directly to LGBTQ issues are "clobber verses", and try to dismiss them without discussing them.

And they tell me there is no way to love LGBTQ people without embracing "who they are". They tell me that's what Jesus would do. They say I am misinterpreting the Bible and offer lots of complicated explanations about Greek and culture that simply aren't true.

The challenge, I think, is to stand for the truth but to stand equally for the love of Jesus. That's hard.