Modern Day Pharisees

[GaryK]

I really don't believe Jesus would insinuate something that serious without making clear what He's referring to. In fact He gave specific examples of what he found ungodly about the Pharisees.

I disagree. Let's try this with Jesus:

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. It is these you ought to have practiced without neglecting the others."

Jesus does not tell us exactly which Pharisees are neglecting justice, mercy, and faith, or telling us exactly which instances he is thinking of. This is frequent with Jesus. I think Jesus flunks your standards regularly. The Pharisees were generally MUCH clearer about precisely who the sinners were, and they were quite certain that they were better than those sinners over there.

So then tell us as Jesus did here what the modern day Pharisees on MN have been doing that you find wrong. You can be very explicit without naming any individual modern day Pharisee.

Then please call out the direct confrontation you feel is wrong from now on so that we don't have to keep going round and round on this. Nobody seems to like inferred wrongdoing without knowing specifically what was done wrong.

I'm not sure the Pharisees liked it either. But I have actually been fairly explicit about the kind of thing I am talking about in several places. I haven't seen a lot of response to it. If I'm wrong, please enlighten me, help me understand these Scriptures better.

For instance:

If you look at the Ephesians thread itself, it's pretty clear what I am advocating:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5756

I think it tells us to keep our eyes on Jesus, on the things that are right and good and true. But it's so easy to get completely carried away with the things that are evil. I think Ephesians 5 gives us good guidance here: "Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord," and "For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret."

Ephesians tells us "it is shameful even to speak", but sometimes it feels like we speak about that constantly, dramatically, repeating the same old points over and over again.

I don't think that's good. Because we don't want to let all that evil stuff become the center of our thought life. And we especially want to avoid becoming "experts in all that is evil" or developing a prurient interest in it. And we also want to avoid self-righteousness, polishing our own righteousness by always pointing to the sinfulness of others. In Ephesians 5, I think it is telling us:

1. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord.
2. But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light.

I think that's what Jesus did. He didn't join the Pharisees in competing to see who could denounce sinners the loudest. He walked in the light and showed them what light looks like. In love. By doing that, he exposed what is evil and called them into the light.

When we talk about specific kinds of sinners, how do we talk about them? How does that compare to the way that Jesus spoke about sinners? How does that compare to the way the Pharisees spoke to sinners? That's a good place to start. How would you answer these questions? Suppose you were to write a post encouraging us to do this the way Jesus did it, what would you write, and which examples would you draw from? To me, that's the kind of conversation I would expect from people who are trying to follow Jesus.

I suggest that anyone who is interested answer these questions for themselves, and apply these scriptures for themselves. Let him who has ears ...

I don't see anything in the above post that explicitly calls out modern day Pharisees like Jesus did in the verse you quoted. Show me what is explicit.

Also, you seem to be comparing the Pharisees of Jesus day with some Christians on MN and I reject that comparison. Then you ask me to answer the questions that use this comparison as a starting point. Now, if you can be a bit more explicit about the types of posts (not specific posts) on MN you have in mind, I will be happy to answer your questions.

[Bootstrap]

So then tell us as Jesus did here what the modern day Pharisees on MN have been doing that you find wrong. You can be very explicit without naming any individual modern day Pharisee.

I think I have done that many times now.

For instance:

As Christians, how do we express our concern for sinners with the same compassion as Jesus? As Christians, how do we reach out for them? As Christians, how do we speak about sinners the way Jesus did? How is that different from the way he talked about Pharisees? What does that tell us?

I think Jesus generally spoke about sinners as:

1. Sheep without a shepherd, a harvest that needs to be harvested, guests to invite to the wedding.
2. People who should be shown compassion and love and grace.
3. People who should shown respect in a way that the Pharisees did not.

On MennoNet, I think some people talk about sinners as:

1. A threat to us, perhaps a threat that someone needs to stop for us, or
2. People for whom no compassion should be shown, and who have little value, or
3. A blank slate that we can project whatever we want onto, true or false, even though we don't know them at all.
4. People to put down so that we can lift ourselves up. Often with dramatic language to show just how we feel about them.

If we follow the example of Jesus, I think that would change the way we speak about these things.

When Jesus spoke of justice and mercy and the weightier matters of the law, I think that very much includes the way we treat the kind of people that the Pharisees treated badly.

[Josh]

There is a 4th category:

4. Jesus talked to people who claimed to love and follow God but actually did not do so. They were highly “religious” yet were rank sinners.

I believe such people exist today. They may claim to be “Christian” yet promote sin and false doctrine.

[Bootstrap]

There is a 4th category:

4. Jesus talked to people who claimed to love and follow God but actually did not do so. They were highly “religious” yet were rank sinners.

I believe such people exist today. They may claim to be “Christian” yet promote sin and false doctrine.

I agree.

In the New Testament, the people Jesus puts into that category is primarily the Pharisees, Sadducees, and teachers of the law. And the sins he calls them out for are the ones shown in lists that have appeared in this thread. Including the way they treated sinners and other "out groups".

Jesus took that kind of sin just as seriously as other sins. And those people were constantly warning against sin and false doctrine, you see that in so many of the encounters with Jesus. "Does he not know what kind of woman?" "Eats with sinners and tax collectors ..." etc.

[GaryK]

So then tell us as Jesus did here what the modern day Pharisees on MN have been doing that you find wrong. You can be very explicit without naming any individual modern day Pharisee.

I think I have done that many times now.

For instance:

As Christians, how do we express our concern for sinners with the same compassion as Jesus? As Christians, how do we reach out for them? As Christians, how do we speak about sinners the way Jesus did? How is that different from the way he talked about Pharisees? What does that tell us?

I think Jesus generally spoke about sinners as:

1. Sheep without a shepherd, a harvest that needs to be harvested, guests to invite to the wedding.
2. People who should be shown compassion and love and grace.
3. People who should shown respect in a way that the Pharisees did not.

On MennoNet, I think some people talk about sinners as:

1. A threat to us, perhaps a threat that someone needs to stop for us, or
2. People for whom no compassion should be shown, and who have little value, or
3. A blank slate that we can project whatever we want onto, true or false, even though we don't know them at all.
4. People to put down so that we can lift ourselves up. Often with dramatic language to show just how we feel about them.

If we follow the example of Jesus, I think that would change the way we speak about these things.

When Jesus spoke of justice and mercy and the weightier matters of the law, I think that very much includes the way we treat the kind of people that the Pharisees treated badly.

Finally, something not vague. Thank you.

1. I think it all depends on who the sinner is as to how they should be treated. If it's people like the low income community we are working with, I think Jesus would respond with compassion and discipleship and we should as well. If it's people who are out knowingly promoting anti-God ideologies, I think Jesus would be much more forthright with them, pointing out the fact that they are guilty of causing others to be led astray in sinful ways. However, I think Jesus would make it clear that He is speaking very forthrightly because He loves them and we should as well.
2. Pretty much the same as # 1
3. I have not seen this on MN.
4. I have not detected that people on MN talk about sinners and current issues and use dramatic language in order to lift themselves up. I think it's possible to have other reasons for using dramatic language that are not Pharisaical in nature. My sense is that a lot of the dramatic language being used on MN has more of a connection to the way certain sinful ideologies are really being promoted in society right now and some people are simply fed up with it and are out to expose it.

[GaryK]

There is a 4th category:

4. Jesus talked to people who claimed to love and follow God but actually did not do so. They were highly “religious” yet were rank sinners.

I believe such people exist today. They may claim to be “Christian” yet promote sin and false doctrine.

I agree.

In the New Testament, the people Jesus puts into that category is primarily the Pharisees, Sadducees, and teachers of the law. And the sins he calls them out for are the ones shown in lists that have appeared in this thread. Including the way they treated sinners and other "out groups".

Jesus took that kind of sin just as seriously as other sins. And those people were constantly warning against sin and false doctrine, you see that in so many of the encounters with Jesus. "Does he not know what kind of woman?" "Eats with sinners and tax collectors ..." etc.

I personally don't think there is anyone on MN who would say things like "Does he not know what kind of woman?" "Eats with sinners and tax collectors ..." etc.

If you think there are people like that on MN, I would encourage you to PM them and confront them about it.

[Bootstrap]

For instance:

As Christians, how do we express our concern for sinners with the same compassion as Jesus? As Christians, how do we reach out for them? As Christians, how do we speak about sinners the way Jesus did? How is that different from the way he talked about Pharisees? What does that tell us?

I think Jesus generally spoke about sinners as:

1. Sheep without a shepherd, a harvest that needs to be harvested, guests to invite to the wedding.
2. People who should be shown compassion and love and grace.
3. People who should shown respect in a way that the Pharisees did not.

On MennoNet, I think some people talk about sinners as:

1. A threat to us, perhaps a threat that someone needs to stop for us, or
2. People for whom no compassion should be shown, and who have little value, or
3. A blank slate that we can project whatever we want onto, true or false, even though we don't know them at all.
4. People to put down so that we can lift ourselves up. Often with dramatic language to show just how we feel about them.

If we follow the example of Jesus, I think that would change the way we speak about these things.

When Jesus spoke of justice and mercy and the weightier matters of the law, I think that very much includes the way we treat the kind of people that the Pharisees treated badly.

Finally, something not vague. Thank you.

1. I think it all depends on who the sinner is as to how they should be treated. If it's people like the low income community we are working with, I think Jesus would respond with compassion and discipleship and we should as well. If it's people who are out knowingly promoting anti-God ideologies, I think Jesus would be much more forthright with them, pointing out the fact that they are guilty of causing others to be led astray in sinful ways. However, I think Jesus would make it clear that He is speaking very forthrightly because He loves them and we should as well.
2. Pretty much the same as # 1
3. I have not seen this on MN.
4. I have not detected that people on MN talk about sinners and current issues and use dramatic language in order to lift themselves up. I think it's possible to have other reasons for using dramatic language that are not Pharisaical in nature. My sense is that a lot of the dramatic language being used on MN has more of a connection to the way certain sinful ideologies are really being promoted in society right now and some people are simply fed up with it and are out to expose it.

Expose it? Is sin so well hidden in America that we need to expose it? And do we have the inside scoop on the sins of people we have only heard of third hand? Is it news to everyone that LGBTQ is an issue in the United States so that we have to remind ourselves regularly? Aren't there other sins, often among our own churches, that are much better hidden? Do we want to start "exposing" THOSE sins here? Would we do that with the same vigor that we use to "expose" sins of strangers we have never met?

When Jesus and the prophets exposed sin, whose sin did they focus on?

Fed up? Is Jesus "fed up" with sinners? Doesn't "fed up" make it mostly about our feelings about them? Does Jesus encourage his followers to be "fed up" with the world? Grieving is appropriate and biblical, I think, but it's a different thing.

I think we see Jesus and Paul primarily telling people how to seek first the Kingdom of God. They don't dwell on pointing out the sins of others. There was PLENTY of sin to point out. Emperor worship. Pagan gods. And the pagans were running the country. Plenty of sexual abominations back then, too. And yet, we don't see Jesus speaking that way. When Paul addresses sexual sin, he uses far less dramatic language than I see here, and he is never depersonalizing people.

What I don't see much of is:

1. Asking how we, as strangers and aliens in this world, live our lives in holiness and love.
2. Asking how we explain Jesus to a world that is far from him, and how we reach out to people.
3. Asking how we explain the biblical view of things like sexuality to those who do not understand.
4. Asking how we make sure that we show the same love and compassion for others that Jesus did when we reach out to sinners.
5. Asking how we can invite God to show us our own sins and to make us holy.

Those questions aren't the ones we talk about here. But I think they are some of the central questions for Christians who seek first the Kingdom of God.

[Josh]

“Depersonalising people”? What do you call calling someone a “brood of vipers”, much less “all Cretans are liars”?

[Sudsy]

My view is that instead of getting angry with how sin is abounding in some area and being excused that we should view these people as being very much in need of a Saviour to deliver them from these influences of satan and that we be more like Jesus who wept over Jerusalem.

But for the grace of God, there go I. What I believe is most needed is to be guided by the Holy Spirit in how we approach these folks shackled by sin and to not let our flesh get the upper hand to the point that we consider them as the enemy.

We can hate the sin but still love the sinner if we allow the Holy Spirit to rule in our lives. More like the 3 points Boot made about how Jesus spoke about sinners.

[Bootstrap]

“Depersonalising people”? What do you call calling someone a “brood of vipers”, much less “all Cretans are liars”?

The "brood of vipers" is, of course, the Pharisees and Sadducees. Jesus did not talk this way about the people that the Pharisees and Sadducees condemned. That's striking.

And "all Cretans are liars" is about the people insisting on circumcision, people who claim to know God, who are teaching the "Jewish myths" and "merely human commands of those who reject the truth". I agree that this is an example of very harsh language. It's not aimed at Gentile believers, it is aimed at those who insist they should follow Jewish religious practices.

10 For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group. 11 They must be silenced, because they are disrupting whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of Crete’s own prophets has said it: “Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.” 13 This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14 and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the merely human commands of those who reject the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.