Coronavirus Outbreak

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Coronavirus Outbreak

Post by Ken »

temporal1 wrote: i wonder how the West coast’s homeless will fare? i imagine it will spread like wildfire.
I dunno. The homeless tend not to move around very much and tend not to be in places that put them in close contact with lots of other people such as airports, stadiums, shopping malls, grocery stores. Yes, they are out of the street, but people tend not to get too close to them, much less touch them or touch anything they have touched like you might do in a school or office or grocery store.

I think the bigger problems that will exacerbate the spread of coronavirus here in the US are doing to be things like:

1. Lack of paid or unpaid sick leave. The US is the only developed country in the world with no mandatory paid sick leave. In fact, many at-will employees in the US can be fired for not showing up for work when sick. So there will likely be many many sick and infected people in the US who continue to go to their fast food, grocery, and retail jobs to continue to work with food and stay in contact with customers. Do you really trust that the minimum wage worker handling your food in the drive-through is not sick?

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2. Lack of any viable public health system to address the costs of testing, treatment, and quarantine. We are already seeing reports trickling in of patients being charged thousands of dollars for testing, and even being charged thousands of dollars for involuntary hospitalization for observation that they did not agree to or wish to undertake. News of this kind of thing spreads like wildfire, and people who lack insurance, or with high deductible plans are likely to avoid medical care as long as they can. The US medical system is actually DESIGNED to produce this result as a means of cost containment but it is exactly the opposite of what you want in a pandemic situation. Hospitals are sending patients the bills for government-mandated quarantines and testing because there is no place else for them to send them. No government agency set up to pay for this sort of thing. For example:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/29/upsh ... bills.html
Frank Wucinski and his 3-year-old daughter, Annabel, are among the dozens of Americans the government has flown back to the country from Wuhan, China, and put under quarantine to check for signs of coronavirus.

Now they are among what could become a growing number of families hit with surprise medical bills related to government-mandated actions.

Mr. Wucinski, a Pennsylvania native who has lived in China for years, accepted the U.S. government’s offer to evacuate from Wuhan with Annabel in early February as the new coronavirus spread. His wife, who is not an American citizen and remains in China, developed pneumonia that doctors think resulted from Covid-19, the disease caused by the respiratory virus. Her father, whom she helped care for, was infected and recently died.

The first stop for Mr. Wucinski and Annabel was a two-week quarantine at Marine Corps Station Miramar near San Diego. During that time, they had two mandatory stays in an isolation unit at a nearby children’s hospital. The first started upon arrival in the United States, and the second was a few days later, after an official heard Annabel coughing.

“The hospital staff were very nice, they brought us a lot of toys,” Mr. Wucinski said. “Each time it was three or four days. I love my daughter to death, but being in the same room that long, she is not a great conversationalist.”

Both have repeatedly tested negative for the virus.

After their release from quarantine, Mr. Wucinski and his daughter went to stay with his mother in Harrisburg, Pa. That’s where they found a pile of medical bills waiting: $3,918 in charges from hospital doctors, radiologists and an ambulance company.

“I assumed it was all being paid for,” Mr. Wucinski said. “We didn’t have a choice. When the bills showed up, it was just a pit in my stomach, like, ‘How do I pay for this?’”
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh

Re: Coronavirus Outbreak

Post by Josh »

Ken,

China has both #1 and #2 that you identified. Didn’t seem to help them.
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Josh

Re: Coronavirus Outbreak

Post by Josh »

justme wrote:
Josh wrote:A few weeks ago, the WHO and CDC said it was a low risk, and Trump repeated that.

Some people like myself were saying it was a big deal and couldn’t agree with the WHO and CDC saying the risk was low.
what did you base your statement on, at that time?
I thought the risk of it spreading to the US and ending up being a high risk within a few weeks was, well, basically 100%.

I work around a lot of risk management professionals including people with expertise in mainland China, and they all thought it was a high risk. (It’s notable that IBM, Verizon, and AT&T all pulled out of attending RSAC 2020, for a public example.)

For those who think I’m some Russian-paid Trump shill, this is an example of where I didn’t agree with Trump’s public statements at all. The border should have been closed during Chinese New Year.
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temporal1

Re: Coronavirus Outbreak

Post by temporal1 »

Congress approved $9.5 Billion to address the situation. DJT accepted.
Did you read his “remarks” in the Pence thread?

Things will move quickly. We see multiple reports/updates each day, some are confusing.
Some are deliberately divisive.

Gov Inslee is going for the money. Others will soon follow. i do believe.
Gov Inslee is a failed Dem presidential candidate. Many are not happy with Seattle’s lib politics.

The West Coast homeless are not all downtrodden mental cases, drug abusers.
Many are gainfully employed, their children are in local schools, Pre-K through college.

My daughter, working in admin for King County public schools sees a lot - including a lot of manipulation of the system by wealthy, well-educated, able people, on the take. law degrees pay off in navigating gov benefits, entitlements.

She has advised me to consider RV life, it’s illegal to ask questions, they take and do as they please. i want to live near my family. if i did, i might end up “there.” it’s on my mind every day.

The homeless can’t be stereotyped as they once were.
i think this was discussed a little in another thread not long ago.

The virus was first recognized in December. It was in the Seattle area in January!
No surprise to me. Huge Asian population in Seattle/the west coast, including Canada - well, anywhere there are jobs. Busy international airports. 2+2=4 stuff. :-|

i’m pretty sure my family will get the virus.
i hope they don’t get it at the same time, so they can help each other.
i’m bothered i might not be able to get there to help them.
i’m bothered that if i flew there, i might carry the virus with me.
i don’t like the idea of getting it here, by myself. there are cases in Chicago, my county is full of Chicago.

o.well. c’est la vie. :)
Last edited by temporal1 on Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Josh

Re: Coronavirus Outbreak

Post by Josh »

After their release from quarantine, Mr. Wucinski and his daughter went to stay with his mother in Harrisburg, Pa. That’s where they found a pile of medical bills waiting: $3,918 in charges from hospital doctors, radiologists and an ambulance company.

“I assumed it was all being paid for,” Mr. Wucinski said. “We didn’t have a choice. When the bills showed up, it was just a pit in my stomach, like, ‘How do I pay for this?’”
On the one hand, it’s ridiculous how mych hospitals and other providers are gouging consumers for routine medical care.

On the other hand, how to pay for $3,918? Set up a 5 year payment plan for $65 a month. That doesn’t seem that hard. Jobs in central PA are quite plentiful.

I’m hopeful covid2019 will highlight how much hospitals profit off the misfortune of others and start bringing about some serious realignment of their persistent price gouging. No other industry gets away with raising prices as quickly as they have over the last 2 decades.
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Coronavirus Outbreak

Post by Ken »

temporal1 wrote:Congress approved $9.5 Billion to address the situation. DJT accepted.
Did you read his “remarks” in the Pence thread?

Things will move quickly. We see multiple reports/updates each day, some are confusing.
Some are deliberately divisive.

Gov Inslee is going for the money. Others will soon follow. i do believe.
Gov Inslee is a failed Dem presidential candidate. Many are not happy with Seattle’s lib politics.

The West Coast homeless are not all downtrodden mental cases, drug abusers.
Many are gainfully employed, their children are in local schools, Pre-K through college.

My daughter, working in admin for King County public schools sees a lot - including a lot of manipulation of the system by wealthy, well-educated, able people, on the take. law degrees pay off in navigating gov benefits, entitlements.

She has advised me to consider RV life, it’s illegal to ask questions, they take and do as they please. i want to live near my family. if i did, i might end up “there.” it’s on my mind every day.

The homeless can’t be stereotyped as they once were.
i think this was discussed a little in another thread not long ago.

The virus was first recognized in December. It was in the Seattle area in January!
No surprise to me. Huge Asian population in Seattle/the west coast, including Canada - well, anywhere there are jobs. Busy international airports. 2+2=4 stuff. :-|
So then what makes you think that the homeless are going to be more susceptible to the virus or a bigger vector than anyone else in the general population? That was the thrust of your original comment.

I don't argue with the fact that Congress is gearing up to spend billions of dollars on this crisis. I'm just pointing out some structural issues in the American economy that are going to make control more difficult than it might be in other countries. Are you guys seriously arguing that the lack of sick leave in much of the US economy, and the lack of a public health infrastructure, are not going to handicap efforts to control this virus?
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Coronavirus Outbreak

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote:
After their release from quarantine, Mr. Wucinski and his daughter went to stay with his mother in Harrisburg, Pa. That’s where they found a pile of medical bills waiting: $3,918 in charges from hospital doctors, radiologists and an ambulance company.

“I assumed it was all being paid for,” Mr. Wucinski said. “We didn’t have a choice. When the bills showed up, it was just a pit in my stomach, like, ‘How do I pay for this?’”
On the one hand, it’s ridiculous how mych hospitals and other providers are gouging consumers for routine medical care.

On the other hand, how to pay for $3,918? Set up a 5 year payment plan for $65 a month. That doesn’t seem that hard. Jobs in central PA are quite plentiful.

I’m hopeful covid2019 will highlight how much hospitals profit off the misfortune of others and start bringing about some serious realignment of their persistent price gouging. No other industry gets away with raising prices as quickly as they have over the last 2 decades.
The government ordered them into quarantine/observation against their will and it turned out they didn't even have the virus in the first place. Whey should they have to pay a dime for any of it?

The reason they are getting a bill in the first place is because the Federal government has no mechanism in place to pay for any of this. There exists no Federal office to which hospitals can send the bills for coronovirus treatment that the government is demanding. So the bill just default goes to the patient unless the hospital eats the cost and writes it off.

My point is that this sort of thing is simply going to make the uninsured and underinsured reluctant to seek medical treatment if they suspect the may have the virus. Which is the exact opposite of what you want to happen if you want to control the epidemic.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Szdfan

Re: Coronavirus Outbreak

Post by Szdfan »

Looks like Rhode Island has its first confirmed case.
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Coronavirus Outbreak

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote:Ken,

China has both #1 and #2 that you identified. Didn’t seem to help them.
I dunno. The numbers are trending sharply downwards everywhere in China right now. They utterly botched the initial response, that's completely true. But since then all of their mobilization seems to be pushing the numbers downwards. Apparently so many patients are recovering and being released in Wuhan that they now have empty beds and capacity all over Wuhan right now. https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20200302_04/

I'm no particular fan of the Chinese. But they did things like lock down an entire city the size of metro Chicago and built entire hospitals from the ground up in less than 2-weeks time. Entire cities and regions shifted all of their schools and university instruction to online in a matter of days.

I have a hard time imagining that sort of thing ever happening in the US.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Szdfan

Re: Coronavirus Outbreak

Post by Szdfan »

Ken wrote:
Josh wrote:Ken,

China has both #1 and #2 that you identified. Didn’t seem to help them.
I dunno. The numbers are trending sharply downwards everywhere in China right now. They utterly botched the initial response, that's completely true. But since then all of their mobilization seems to be pushing the numbers downwards. Apparently so many patients are recovering and being released in Wuhan that they now have empty beds and capacity all over Wuhan right now. https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20200302_04/

I'm no particular fan of the Chinese. But they did things like lock down an entire city the size of metro Chicago and built entire hospitals from the ground up in less than 2-weeks time. Entire cities and regions shifted all of their schools and university instruction to online in a matter of days.

I have a hard time imagining that sort of thing ever happening in the US.
And considering the population and population density of China, it could have been a lot worse.

It’s still early, I’m interested to see if the downward trend continues.
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