briar patch

[JohnH]

Probably where we get off track, is demanding mercy for ourselves, when the verse is really teaching us to extend mercy towards others.

They were asking for mercy for a convicted criminal, though - not for themselves.

[GaryK]

Possibly this kind of mercy:

Jesus said:
Luke 17:2
King James Bible
It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

Do you think this verse is addressing mercy? Again. when you say "a Christian is not to rejoice at this" are you suggesting that Christians should have a merciful attitude toward the criminal?

Right, I was making a point. We need to discern when mercy is appropriate and when justice is.

I'm happy to Let God decide that. As a follower of Jesus, I am called to be merciful, not administer justice.

Luke 6:35-36 NKJV 35 "But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. 36 "Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.

[Valerie]

Do you think this verse is addressing mercy? Again. when you say "a Christian is not to rejoice at this" are you suggesting that Christians should have a merciful attitude toward the criminal?

Right, I was making a point. We need to discern when mercy is appropriate and when justice is.

I'm happy to Let God decide that. As a follower of Jesus, I am called to be merciful, not administer justice.

Luke 6:35-36 NKJV 35 "But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. 36 "Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.

They’re separate issues- government handling murderers and Christians living their own enemies. I respect Gods decisions- I really wasn’t refer to our own enemies but killers on the loose.

[GaryK]

Right, I was making a point. We need to discern when mercy is appropriate and when justice is.

I'm happy to Let God decide that. As a follower of Jesus, I am called to be merciful, not administer justice.

Luke 6:35-36 NKJV 35 "But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. 36 "Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.

They’re separate issues- government handling murderers and Christians living their own enemies. I respect Gods decisions- I really wasn’t refer to our own enemies but killers on the loose.

Notice Jesus' statement above, "For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful"

[JohnH]

But it's not merciful to demand lesser sentences for crimes of great immorality, particularly when that person goes on to reoffend, and I don't see where the New Testament somehow teaches us we're supposed to promote that.

Again, I think Anabaptists have been getting this one horribly wrong. Indeed, it's actually a pretty bad witness, because to outsiders, it doesn't look like obedience to Jesus' teachings about mercy: instead, it looks like an ethno-religious group that just wants to protect their own, shield them from consequences, and show no concern for victims.

I would also argue this isn't "mercy" for the person who engages in such immorality; indeed, the New Testament teaches us that such an immoral person should be excommunicated until such time as they repent, which includes admitting their wrongdoing.

[GaryK]

But it's not merciful to demand lesser sentences for crimes of great immorality, particularly when that person goes on to reoffend, and I don't see where the New Testament somehow teaches us we're supposed to promote that.

Again, I think Anabaptists have been getting this one horribly wrong. Indeed, it's actually a pretty bad witness, because to outsiders, it doesn't look like obedience to Jesus' teachings about mercy: instead, it looks like an ethno-religious group that just wants to protect their own, shield them from consequences, and show no concern for victims.

I would also argue this isn't "mercy" for the person who engages in such immorality; indeed, the New Testament teaches us that such an immoral person should be excommunicated until such time as they repent, which includes admitting their wrongdoing.

I'm not sure who you are arguing with concerning the Mast situation. It's certainly not me, other than I asked you earlier if you have a merciful attitude toward Jeriah and his dad?

[Soloist]

But it's not merciful to demand lesser sentences for crimes of great immorality, particularly when that person goes on to reoffend, and I don't see where the New Testament somehow teaches us we're supposed to promote that.

Again, I think Anabaptists have been getting this one horribly wrong. Indeed, it's actually a pretty bad witness, because to outsiders, it doesn't look like obedience to Jesus' teachings about mercy: instead, it looks like an ethno-religious group that just wants to protect their own, shield them from consequences, and show no concern for victims.

I would also argue this isn't "mercy" for the person who engages in such immorality; indeed, the New Testament teaches us that such an immoral person should be excommunicated until such time as they repent, which includes admitting their wrongdoing.

I thankfully haven't encountered such.

I don't see anything in Scripture saying you can't ask for mercy either but there should be wisdom with what we ask for mercy on.

[JohnH]

But it's not merciful to demand lesser sentences for crimes of great immorality, particularly when that person goes on to reoffend, and I don't see where the New Testament somehow teaches us we're supposed to promote that.

Again, I think Anabaptists have been getting this one horribly wrong. Indeed, it's actually a pretty bad witness, because to outsiders, it doesn't look like obedience to Jesus' teachings about mercy: instead, it looks like an ethno-religious group that just wants to protect their own, shield them from consequences, and show no concern for victims.

I would also argue this isn't "mercy" for the person who engages in such immorality; indeed, the New Testament teaches us that such an immoral person should be excommunicated until such time as they repent, which includes admitting their wrongdoing.

I'm not sure who you are arguing with concerning the Mast situation. It's certainly not me, other than I asked you earlier if you have a merciful attitude toward Jeriah and his dad?

The original topic was whether or not Christians should advocate for more lenient sentences for those convicted of crimes.

As far as a "merciful attitude" - I don't think Christian mercy means "get away with a more lenient sentence". I don't think that's what's good for either person. Both of those people need to repent. That's the true meaning of Christian mercy.

[GaryK]

But it's not merciful to demand lesser sentences for crimes of great immorality, particularly when that person goes on to reoffend, and I don't see where the New Testament somehow teaches us we're supposed to promote that.

Again, I think Anabaptists have been getting this one horribly wrong. Indeed, it's actually a pretty bad witness, because to outsiders, it doesn't look like obedience to Jesus' teachings about mercy: instead, it looks like an ethno-religious group that just wants to protect their own, shield them from consequences, and show no concern for victims.

I would also argue this isn't "mercy" for the person who engages in such immorality; indeed, the New Testament teaches us that such an immoral person should be excommunicated until such time as they repent, which includes admitting their wrongdoing.

I'm not sure who you are arguing with concerning the Mast situation. It's certainly not me, other than I asked you earlier if you have a merciful attitude toward Jeriah and his dad?

The original topic was whether or not Christians should advocate for more lenient sentences for those convicted of crimes.

As far as a "merciful attitude" - I don't think Christian mercy means "get away with a more lenient sentence". I don't think that's what's good for either person. Both of those people need to repent. That's the true meaning of Christian mercy.

No, the original topic was about calling for the execution of criminals and then I brought up Jesus teaching on being merciful. For some reason that then turned into the Jeriah Mast topic.

If that's what you want to talk about, I'm interested in hearing how Jesus' teaching on His followers being merciful would apply to the Mast case, not how it wouldn't apply. I never mentioned or talked about getting away with a more lenient sentence yet it's being implied that my mention of mercy includes that. It doesn't.

Edited to add these verses on mercy. James 2:12-13 NKJV 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

I can't see how Christians calling for the execution of criminals can be squared with these verses.

[JohnH]

I don’t see how the NT teaches us to dabble in politics at all and dictate why capital punishment is somehow wrong but life imprisonment is somehow morally superior.

If capital punishment were so bad, I’d expect the Bible to say so.