Trudy Metzger/Steve Stutzman

[temporal1]

t1,
With respect, Grace has been complaining since the start that we shouldn’t be talking about the Leroy Miller situation. It’s private, this is gossip, it’s a bad witness to talk about it, etc. etc.

I disagree. Once you pull your pants down in public, some things aren’t private anymore.

i know nothing of Leroy Miller, i tried to clarify above, my response was intended to be about the initial FB post added several pages back. P.5, July 5.

i may be least informed here wrt details being discussed. i don’t personally know the victims or accused.
i’m pretty well informed about Grace’s posting history, which compels me to read with grace.

[ken_sylvania]

^^several posts added since i wrote this.
this is not in response to those additions.

P.27:

And the saga continues with back and forth between (so called Christian) people on Facebook. In the past two weeks there have been Facebook squabbles between Trudy and various other people, including, Steve Stutzman, James Peight, and someone called El Ly. I do not know these people, but one says one thing and another says something else. Each one has their followers, and the followers post comments against the others. The back and forth is unreal and disgusting. And none of it is a good testimony.

As for Leroy Miller seeking expungement. I believe his Character is far from stellar, but seeking expungement is legal and something that a person might have many reasons to do. Trudy posted the legal documents concerning his expungement request on Facebook. And posting those documents is a prime example of her tactics. Using carefully chosen words, making a big deal about something that really is none of her business but not making any accusations. She puts out the bait, her followers swallow the bait and fill in the blanks for her, making the accusations, accusing him of attempting to cover up his past crimes and various other accusations. I am not defending Leroy Miller, but before posting his expungement request documents, shouldn't he be given the chance to explain why he is seeking expungement, instead of having her followers make all kinds of assumptions.

Posting private information such as an expungement request on social media to a broad audience who have nothing to do with the situation, seems like gossip to me. The definition of gossip is a person who habitually reveals personal or sensational facts about others.

So... how exactly is what Trudy is doing different from your post here?
Whatever all was going on on Facebook - you just spread it all further by posting it here. If it's disgusting for it to be on Facebook, why publicize it here?
You say Leroy Miller and his expungement is none of Trudy's business, implying that she shouldn't be posting about it. Is Trudy and what she posts any of your business?

You imply that Trudy should have given Leroy a chance to explain before posting about his expungement request. Did you check with Trudy and give her a chance to explain before posting this critical comment about her?

Since the folks on Mennonet have nothing to do with Trudy's Facebook situation, doesn't your post fall within your own definition of gossip? Or is it only gossip when Trudy does it but not when Grace does it?

Sadly, i believe it was Ernie who brought FB here, P.5, July 5, which put Grace in the unenviable position of having to make a choice whether to attempt to explain or defend herself. Extra-hard for an authentic believer, as i understand Grace to be.

My sense is, Grace is doing her level best to respond with moderation that would please Jesus.
Pray for the Holy Spirit to protect, inform, guide.

In my view, Grace is quite self-aware, she explains herself well, with humility. At all times.
i agree with her that she has been careful to respect Trudy and Trudy’s work, with certain exceptions. At all times.

It requires reading for all content, without flaring up over “hot spots” which can cause blind spots. (Not easy when emotions are high.) i learned that lesson in the past, first person. emotions can significantly alter understanding.

i’m sorry for these horrendous incidents of abuse. everywhere they occur.
Grace is not guilty.

The guilty LOVE distractions away from themselves, an age-old tool of many tools they use and enjoy -
to 1) be free of accountability, and 2) to continue in sn.

SIN is the culprit. The age old culprit.

The post I quoted had nothing to do with what Ernie posted. In the post I quoted, Grace wasn't attempting to explain or defend herself. She was simply doing the exact same kind of thing that she criticizes Trudy for.

[ken_sylvania]

So... how exactly is what Trudy is doing different from your post here?
Whatever all was going on on Facebook - you just spread it all further by posting it here. If it's disgusting for it to be on Facebook, why publicize it here?
You say Leroy Miller and his expungement is none of Trudy's business, implying that she shouldn't be posting about it. Is Trudy and what she posts any of your business?

You imply that Trudy should have given Leroy a chance to explain before posting about his expungement request. Did you check with Trudy and give her a chance to explain before posting this critical comment about her?

Since the folks on Mennonet have nothing to do with Trudy's Facebook situation, doesn't your post fall within your own definition of gossip? Or is it only gossip when Trudy does it but not when Grace does it?

With all due respect I was not the one who brought the Miller matter here to Mennonet, about Miller's despicable actions in asking for money when a young man sinned. Nor did I post the expungement request documents. As I said in another post, I get it, anyone who might not agree with Trudy's tactics must be silenced by whatever method.

And with that same amount of all due respect - my point still stands. I didn't say you did of any of the things you are denying here and they are irrelevant to what I posted.

[Grace]

t1,

With respect, Grace has been complaining since the start that we shouldn’t be talking about the Leroy Miller situation. It’s private, this is gossip, it’s a bad witness to talk about it, etc. etc.

I disagree. Once you pull your pants down in public, some things aren’t private anymore.

LOL, Well, that is blunt way to say it.

Let me clarify something. I feel that the back and forth that was going on between Steve Stutzman, Trudy, and others, that is a bad witness. Add to that the posted comments made. Steve posted a rebuttal to Trudy, then Trudy posted her rebuttal. Then there is a guy, James Peight and someone by the name of El Ly, there was a back and forth between Trudy and them. Trudy does have every right to defend herself when these people mention her or allude to her in their posts. And these other people have every right to respond to her as well. And I am not putting all the blame on Trudy either. But is all that a good witness?

[anndet92]

t1,

With respect, Grace has been complaining since the start that we shouldn’t be talking about the Leroy Miller situation. It’s private, this is gossip, it’s a bad witness to talk about it, etc. etc.

I disagree. Once you pull your pants down in public, some things aren’t private anymore.

LOL, Well, that is blunt way to say it.

Let me clarify something. I feel that the back and forth that was going on between Steve Stutzman, Trudy, and others, that is a bad witness. Add to that the posted comments made. Steve posted a rebuttal to Trudy, then Trudy posted her rebuttal. Then there is a guy, James Peight and someone by the name of El Ly, there was a back and forth between Trudy and them. Trudy does have every right to defend herself when these people mention her or allude to her in their posts. And these other people have every right to respond to her as well. And I am not putting all the blame on Trudy either. But is all that a good witness?

From my point of view, people like Steve Stutzman who continuously defend their buddies (Leroy Miller and others) who got caught with their pants down (and worse, in some cases) are a horrible “witness”.

Abuse happens everywhere.

But when it happens in “Christian communities” and the abusers are defended, abuse is minimized, while truth tellers are ostracized, THAT is when God’s name is carried in vain.

It is not the telling of it that hurts God’s name.

[ohio jones]

I posted public court proceedings about a notable, public Anabaptist pastor.

Do you think that’s wrong?

As an administrative matter, posting links rather than screenshots or text of the actual documents is preferred.

[Grace]

From my point of view, people like Steve Stutzman who continuously defend their buddies (Leroy Miller and others) who got caught with their pants down (and worse, in some cases) are a horrible “witness”.

But when it happens in “Christian communities” and the abusers are defended, abuse is minimized, while truth tellers are ostracized, THAT is when God’s name is carried in vain.

What do you think would be adequate punishment for Leroy Miller's crimes he committed and spent time in prison for many years ago. In your opinion what punishment today would satisfy that crime? What do you think should happen to him?

And in your opinion what punishment would be adequate for Steve Stutzman?

[anndet92]

From my point of view, people like Steve Stutzman who continuously defend their buddies (Leroy Miller and others) who got caught with their pants down (and worse, in some cases) are a horrible “witness”.

But when it happens in “Christian communities” and the abusers are defended, abuse is minimized, while truth tellers are ostracized, THAT is when God’s name is carried in vain.

What do you think would be adequate punishment for Leroy Miller's crimes he committed and spent time in prison for many years ago. In your opinion what punishment today would satisfy that crime? What do you think should happen to him?

And in your opinion what punishment would be adequate for Steve Stutzman?

At the bare minimum, neither of them should be in leadership positions or in “ministry”. Neither should be counseling people.

They’ve both proved themselves to be unsafe.

The public deserves to know what all went down so that we can all better protect vulnerable people from egoistical, corrupt men who prey and “pray”.

[JohnH]

I posted public court proceedings about a notable, public Anabaptist pastor.

Do you think that’s wrong?

As an administrative matter, posting links rather than screenshots or text of the actual documents is preferred.

Can’t be directly linked, but:

https://public.courts.in.gov/MyCase#/vw/Search

Case number is 44D01-2608-XP-000019 and click Search.

(Hence why I posted a pic / text.)

[JohnH]

From my point of view, people like Steve Stutzman who continuously defend their buddies (Leroy Miller and others) who got caught with their pants down (and worse, in some cases) are a horrible “witness”.

But when it happens in “Christian communities” and the abusers are defended, abuse is minimized, while truth tellers are ostracized, THAT is when God’s name is carried in vain.

What do you think would be adequate punishment for Leroy Miller's crimes he committed and spent time in prison for many years ago. In your opinion what punishment today would satisfy that crime? What do you think should happen to him?

And in your opinion what punishment would be adequate for Steve Stutzman?

At the bare minimum, neither of them should be in leadership positions or in “ministry”. Neither should be counseling people.

They’ve both proved themselves to be unsafe.

The public deserves to know what all went down so that we can all better protect vulnerable people from egoistical, corrupt men who prey and “pray”.

Interesting how not being a pastor and a counsellor including unusual sessions with young girls and young youth boys is considered a “punishment”.

I’m not a pastor. Am I being “punished”?

None of my old speeding tickets are expunged either. I don’t feel it would be a Christian witness to do so either. I recently was convicted of 39 in a 35, too. It is public record.