Harmonia Sacra / Sacred Harp

[ohio jones]

Joseph Funk. I go past his house every day.

His system faded and was replaced by the standard do re mi scale, and his hymnal was rewritten to reflect that change. If you have a really old one, the shapes are a little disconcerting until you get used to it.

I'm guessing if Oasis used that system in one of their concerts it might not produce a lot of dancing. Is that what disconcerting means in this case? I think OJ can probably come up with some better ones.

I've been aiken to comment on the funky shaped notes in Harmonia Sacra. Depending on the edition you may find 3-part or 4-part arrangements, 4-shape or 7-shape notes, or even a mix to facilitate hip-hopping between them. But the most confusing part is that 606 has been renumbered 290.

[barnhart]

I'm guessing if Oasis used that system in one of their concerts it might not produce a lot of dancing. Is that what disconcerting means in this case? I think OJ can probably come up with some better ones.

If you are accustomed to the shapes indicating pitch, it is disorienting to discover the same shapes repeating on a different line.

Why would that be? I grew up using shaped notes, and later learned to read standard notation, but I never had a problem understanding octaves.

It's been awhile but as I recall the scale went up fa so la ti and then another fa.

[mike]

If you are accustomed to the shapes indicating pitch, it is disorienting to discover the same shapes repeating on a different line.

Why would that be? I grew up using shaped notes, and later learned to read standard notation, but I never had a problem understanding octaves.

It's been awhile but as I recall the scale went up fa so la ti and then another fa.

Yes, the scale repeats, but if you understand octaves it makes perfect sense. Unless I am misunderstanding your comment. Standard notation is exactly the same - E repeats every octave, so does F, G, A, etc etc.

[Wesleyb]

Why would that be? I grew up using shaped notes, and later learned to read standard notation, but I never had a problem understanding octaves.

It's been awhile but as I recall the scale went up fa so la ti and then another fa.

Yes, the scale repeats, but if you understand octaves it makes perfect sense. Unless I am misunderstanding your comment. Standard notation is exactly the same - E repeats every octave, so does F, G, A, etc etc.

I think what Barnhart is saying is that in the 7 note system the names don't repeat within an octave, but in the 4 note system they do.

[JohnH]

Personally, I've never understood what's so hard about reading a normal music staff, but then again I am one of those highly-educated people who's been taking piano lessons since a young age. I still don't bother to read shapes and they don't really make "sense" to me. I just sing by reading the round notes off the staff.

The predilection of plain people for key signatures with lots of sharps or flats does make it a little harder. Never was particularly good at that.

[joshuabgood]

It's been awhile but as I recall the scale went up fa so la ti and then another fa.

Yes, the scale repeats, but if you understand octaves it makes perfect sense. Unless I am misunderstanding your comment. Standard notation is exactly the same - E repeats every octave, so does F, G, A, etc etc.

I think what Barnhart is saying is that in the 7 note system the names don't repeat within an octave, but in the 4 note system they do.

Yes this is right. Real Harmonia Sacra is all four shapes. Not the newer seven. Fa for example has two separate pitches in the same octave.

[barnhart]

It's been awhile but as I recall the scale went up fa so la ti and then another fa.

Yes, the scale repeats, but if you understand octaves it makes perfect sense. Unless I am misunderstanding your comment. Standard notation is exactly the same - E repeats every octave, so does F, G, A, etc etc.

I think what Barnhart is saying is that in the 7 note system the names don't repeat within an octave, but in the 4 note system they do.

Yes. With only four shapes to represent a seven tone scale the shapes repeat within the same octave. If you are familiar with it or if you just read lines and spaces it's not a problem, but if you lean on the shapes it a little unnerving.

[Neto]

Re: Shaped Notes
Where this has helped me in the past is that the 'home note' is always the same shape, regardless of the particular key. (At least in the books we used to use in our services. Now, it's all "off-the-wall music". Unfortunately.)

[mike]

It's been awhile but as I recall the scale went up fa so la ti and then another fa.

Yes, the scale repeats, but if you understand octaves it makes perfect sense. Unless I am misunderstanding your comment. Standard notation is exactly the same - E repeats every octave, so does F, G, A, etc etc.

I think what Barnhart is saying is that in the 7 note system the names don't repeat within an octave, but in the 4 note system they do.

Oh, OK. I wasn't aware of that. I assume that's what is sometimes called the Sacred Harp notation. I didn't realize this was in common use anywhere, outside of things like certain music clubs or societies. Shaped note singing as it is in many conservative Anabaptist churches of course uses the same scale as standard notation, just with shapes.

[Neto]

I've been pondering on the themes in this thread for a few weeks.

A few thoughts...

I well understand that Plain Anabaptists are not going to get a lot of encouragement to pursue a musical career that involves performance. That is simply against the Anabaptist concepts regarding humility and doing things together as a community.
Most Plain Anabaptists musical artists will not be funded in order to get an undergrad degree in music let alone a grad degree.
The majority of Plain Anabaptists don't allow instruments so anyone who isn't willing to become Pilgrim or something less conservative isn't going to be able to enjoy playing instruments.
However...
Musically inclined people can teach good music in day schools, and this is often appreciated. The singing of many communities has been transformed by teachers who taught school students to love music and there are lots of stories about this from the past as well as the present about how this is happening.
There is a good market for well written hymns and songs and arrangements written by Plain people.
There has been a dearth of music curriculum writers, and some musicians could lean into this.
Most Anabaptist communities are ok with evening or weekend singing schools for adults.
There is unlimited opportunity for good singing groups to sing in nursing homes, prisons, etc. and many churches would bless this.
Most every Anabaptist 21+ would be allowed to pursue music education quietly as a sideline interest. (They might not get a lot of encouragement depending on what family they come from or what church they attend.)

So, when Plain Anabaptists talk about not being able to pursue excellence in music, or artists needing to leave the church in order to be an artist, I'm not sure that is entirely accurate. I think what they are really saying is that Plain Anabaptists can't purse music in the same manner as most other musicians and get the same level of encouragement/praise as what other musicians get.
To illustrate my point,
The Israelites wanted a king rather than a prophet like Samuel. I'm guessing some Israelites believed that there was no room for "real leadership" in the nation of Israel. Pursuing a calling like Samuel's wasn't consider leadership.

So the question in my mind is, Does a person need to pursue the arts in the manner everyone else does, or can they think outside of the traditional music career box and still have a rich musical life experience?

A second question is,
For those who think that Plain Anabaptists are "bad" for restricting musicians from becoming musicians are they really thinking about what they are promoting?

Here is the spread of musicians/music in the USA currently
20–22% — Rock
19–21% — R&B / Hip-Hop
15–17% — Pop
10–12% — Country
7–9% — Latin
5–7% — Alternative
3–4% — Electronic / Dance
1–2% — Jazz
1–2% — Classical
1–2% — Folk / Americana
<1% — Blues

Are those who believe that Plain Anabaptists are too restrictive really wanting to see this sort of spread in Plain Anabaptist churches? If so, then I don't think they understand the essence of Plain Anabaptist culture, why it still exists, and why they would hate to see the Plain Anabaptist culture cease to exist. (Unless they are like Anthony who doesn't really see much value in it to begin with.)

And lastly,
There are some Plain Anabaptists musicians who wish they could sing in country bands or other major genre's but most who think that Anabaptists hinder musical art expression are folks who want to sing classical/choral. Why is that? Where did the desire for excellence in classical/choral come from? Did it not come from a rich a plain, A cappela hymnody heritage? Had these same people grown up in a normal American home, their interests would likely not be classical/choral excellence but rather excellence in a range of genre's. So my theory is that the thing that seems to be too restrictive in their minds, is the very thing that helped them develop a taste for quality music that lasts for centuries.
I think the fact that they even care about wanting to produce and sing good quality classical and choral music is because a subculture limited their exposure and helped them develop a particular taste.

Couple of comments:
I grew up in a church setting where we nearly always had piano accompaniment. Then there were the periodic "Christian Endeavor" Sunday evening meetings where members played harmonica, accordion, guitar, brass and wind instruments, etc. (as well as poetic & Scripture recitations).

I 'could not sing', but took a music appreciation course in (public) HS, and learned to like classical music, especially Bach, on the harpsicord.

Music Careers for 'Plain People": Would there be a problem with someone who wanted to become a missionary ethnomusicologist? (This is where a person studies a minority culture's music form, and then assists the people themselves in writing Christian songs in that language that conform to the intonation and stress patterns (rules) of that particular language.)

When the Banawa first began having 'church services' the chief asked us to sing a song in our own language, as well as in the 'American language'. We sang Gott Ist die Leiber in German and English, then I sang it for them as I had translated it into Banawa. They understood the words, but could not sing it. The melody was just too foreign for them. (Now, they probably could, as I've seen videos of them singing Western hymns in Banawa. We never encouraged that - it's an outside influence, a wanting to 'do church' like the Brazilians do.) [In linguistic training courses we had a semester long course where we learned another language as a practice for language learning methodology. I was assigned to Cheyenne, and I actually did put a Bible verse (in Cheyenne) to 'proper Cheyenne music style', to the satisfaction of my Cheyenne teacher. But maybe she was just being nice....?]