anndet92 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2026 7:15 pm
This is new to me, and I’m not sure I understand.
So the passive aggressive approach is better?
"I" statements are not passive aggressive; they are a shift in technique that helps promote peaceful communication. This may not be the best explanation but it's one I was able to find quickly: https://www.firstsession.com/resources/ ... statements
Grace wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2026 1:02 pm
I am very disappointed in Amos Raber and I hope he offers an explanation on the matter. Amos Raber married the couple in 2020. The girl was signed off by some relatives. Could it be that Amos Raber was unaware of the prior abuse, by the groom.
I'm trying to think of an excuse, any kind of a story that would make me say "Oh, that makes sense. I totally agree that this 16 year old girl should be getting married to a 28 year old man." SHE WAS ONLY SIXTEEN!!!!! HE IS ALMOST TWELVE YEARS OLDER THAN SHE IS!!!!
I get it. Some of you are going to say "Oh, but that was normal for many years. Sixteen year olds used to be considered adults!"
NO, THIS SHOULD NOT BE NORMAL! At some point, even if Raber "was unaware", he had a duty to investigate and find out why this 28 year old man had such an urgent need to marry this 16 year old girl.
Note that in both Ohio and Indiana (along with much of the rest of America, Canada, Europe, and the rest of the world), it is entirely legal for a 16 year old and someone else of any age to live together, engage in carnal relations, have children together out of wedlock, etc., so whilst I find the marriage at that young age a bit odd, it is entirely “normal” by worldly standards for a couple to be that age with that difference.
Obviously in conservative Anabaptist circles we would not approve of living together and most of our churches prefer people get married at an older age. If Amos Raber hadn’t married them, they could have simply reported to the justice of the peace and compelled them to marry them.
Nonsense. It's not entirely normal, and in fact it is illegal for a 28 year old to marry a 16 year old in Indiana. And while a 16 year old may have reached the legal age of consent, the general population knows very well that it's creepy for a 28 year old to be bedding a 16 year old. In fact, in Illinois, where this marriage took place, it would have been a crime for him to sleep with her out of wedlock.
And even in Illinois a 16 year old can't marry a 28 year old without either judicial or parental consent. So no, they can't just up and force a JP to marry them.
Sometimes the children of this world are wiser than the "children of light."
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2026 10:23 pm
Nonsense. It's not entirely normal, and in fact it is illegal for a 28 year old to marry a 16 year old in Indiana. And while a 16 year old may have reached the legal age of consent, the general population knows very well that it's creepy for a 28 year old to be bedding a 16 year old. In fact, in Illinois, where this marriage took place, it would have been a crime for him to sleep with her out of wedlock.
And even in Illinois a 16 year old can't marry a 28 year old without either judicial or parental consent. So no, they can't just up and force a JP to marry them.
Sometimes the children of this world are wiser than the "children of light."
I’m quite puzzled then how a marriage took place in Illinois if it weren’t legally recognised there. Regardless, in most of the world (including much of the U.S. and Canada) this relationship is entirely legal (minus the marriage part).
In any case, I really don’t understand why this person officiated the marriage ceremony, but at the same time I’m unclear on what this has to do with the rest of the crimes these persons are accused of.
Grace wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2026 4:52 pm
Amos Raber responded to his marrying the couple:
Wife: this would be a good case for churches only officiating for their own members. am I wrong that at least one of them was not a member?
I really don't know the answer to that. The whole matter does appear like Amos Raber was partly deceived. And judging from the FB comments, his name is now smeared and will be smeared for long time.
The elephant in the room is that the minister could NOT have married them unless a marriage license had been issued by the state. I would suggest taking a hard look at whoever issued that. The minister or church cannot do that. Once the license is issued, getting someone to officiate is a comparatively simple matter. WHO AND HOW WAS THE LICENSE ISSUED?
Wife: this would be a good case for churches only officiating for their own members. am I wrong that at least one of them was not a member?
I really don't know the answer to that. The whole matter does appear like Amos Raber was partly deceived. And judging from the FB comments, his name is now smeared and will be smeared for long time.
The elephant in the room is that the minister could NOT have married them unless a marriage license had been issued by the state. I would suggest taking a hard look at whoever issued that. The minister or church cannot do that. Once the license is issued, getting someone to officiate is a comparatively simple matter. WHO AND HOW WAS THE LICENSE ISSUED?
Presumably by the two people who wanted to get married, plus whatever legal requirements were required for someone under 18 (guardian and/or family court permission).
None of which has anything to do with Amish people or Anabaptist churches in the slightest. Although as an Anabaptist I would not be interested at all in ministers from my church presiding over random weddings of non-members. We just plain don’t do that.
I really don't know the answer to that. The whole matter does appear like Amos Raber was partly deceived. And judging from the FB comments, his name is now smeared and will be smeared for long time.
The elephant in the room is that the minister could NOT have married them unless a marriage license had been issued by the state. I would suggest taking a hard look at whoever issued that. The minister or church cannot do that. Once the license is issued, getting someone to officiate is a comparatively simple matter. WHO AND HOW WAS THE LICENSE ISSUED?
Presumably by the two people who wanted to get married, plus whatever legal requirements were required for someone under 18 (guardian and/or family court permission).
None of which has anything to do with Amish people or Anabaptist churches in the slightest. Although as an Anabaptist I would not be interested at all in ministers from my church presiding over random weddings of non-members. We just plain don’t do that.
My point is that while I suspect that neither of our churches would permit its ministry to marry non members, except in exceptional circumstances, the state basically shares in any blame for this situation. It s likely they convinced a judge this was ok.
While this minister was clearly unwise, the state was equally unwise.
Im going to shoot straight with you for a bit, Grace. Please understand I’m not trying to be mean or rude - I’m just sad mostly. I’ve heard the sentiments you express many times in the last 10 years.
Haveyou ever talked with counselors or therapists that primarily work with Amish and Mennonite people?
Just because youhaven’t heard of many cases doesn’t mean that abuse hasn’t happened. In fact, whenyou’re constantly nitpicking the people who are trying to protect children, you probably aren’t going to have survivors feel comfortable telling you their stories.
I would believe youmore about some things being a distraction from the work Trudy does if you actually applied those same principles to Steve Stutzman and his social media account. I’ve yet to see you do that. Steve’s camp said far more vile things than I’ve seen in Trudy’s posts, and to my knowledge he has yet to distance himself from those comments/people.
I’m trying to understand why you feel the way you do.
Just a friendly and kindly reminder.
Board guidelines:
- Use I statements. Speak for yourself and don't decide what someone else is meaning to say or exaggerate what someone else posts.
- Do not state that someone else is wrong or does not understand. State your own thoughts and opinions.
I think she used a lot of "I" statements. It looks to me like the subject of her sentences was more often "I" than "you".
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2026 10:23 pm
Nonsense. It's not entirely normal, and in fact it is illegal for a 28 year old to marry a 16 year old in Indiana. And while a 16 year old may have reached the legal age of consent, the general population knows very well that it's creepy for a 28 year old to be bedding a 16 year old. In fact, in Illinois, where this marriage took place, it would have been a crime for him to sleep with her out of wedlock.
And even in Illinois a 16 year old can't marry a 28 year old without either judicial or parental consent. So no, they can't just up and force a JP to marry them.
Sometimes the children of this world are wiser than the "children of light."
I’m quite puzzled then how a marriage took place in Illinois if it weren’t legally recognised there. Regardless, in most of the world (including much of the U.S. and Canada) this relationship is entirely legal (minus the marriage part).
In any case, I really don’t understand why this person officiated the marriage ceremony, but at the same time I’m unclear on what this has to do with the rest of the crimes these persons are accused of.
I didn't say the marriage wasn't legally recognized in Illinois. I said it would require judicial or parental consent.
I don't know either what it has to do with the crimes of the accused. You're the one that drug it into the conversation!
Judas Maccabeus wrote: ↑Mon Jul 20, 2026 12:18 am
My point is that while I suspect that neither of our churches would permit its ministry to marry non members, except in exceptional circumstances, the state basically shares in any blame for this situation. It s likely they convinced a judge this was ok.
While this minister was clearly unwise, the state was equally unwise.
I would presume the state followed the relevant laws regarding marriage.
Whilst in this case the marriage seems unwise to me (regardless of age), I would hesitate to say my grandparents’ marriage at 16 & 18 was unwise, my wife’s parents at 17 & 18, and so forth. I find it particularly odd to take a position that marriages at 16 or 17 are somehow bad when all manner of fornication, cohabitation, childbearing out of wedlock, etc between a 16 and 18 year are entirely legal. I would work on changing the latter laws first.
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Sun Jul 19, 2026 10:23 pm
Nonsense. It's not entirely normal, and in fact it is illegal for a 28 year old to marry a 16 year old in Indiana. And while a 16 year old may have reached the legal age of consent, the general population knows very well that it's creepy for a 28 year old to be bedding a 16 year old. In fact, in Illinois, where this marriage took place, it would have been a crime for him to sleep with her out of wedlock.
And even in Illinois a 16 year old can't marry a 28 year old without either judicial or parental consent. So no, they can't just up and force a JP to marry them.
Sometimes the children of this world are wiser than the "children of light."
I’m quite puzzled then how a marriage took place in Illinois if it weren’t legally recognised there. Regardless, in most of the world (including much of the U.S. and Canada) this relationship is entirely legal (minus the marriage part).
In any case, I really don’t understand why this person officiated the marriage ceremony, but at the same time I’m unclear on what this has to do with the rest of the crimes these persons are accused of.
I didn't say the marriage wasn't legally recognized in Illinois. I said it would require judicial or parental consent.
I don't know either what it has to do with the crimes of the accused. You're the one that drug it into the conversation!
Actually, the person officiating the marriage was drug into the conversation way back on page 14 by Anndet92. Amos Raber has expressed deep regret for officiating that marriage and he did so without knowing all the facts. Nevertheless, he has been thrown under the bus by TM and some (not all) of her followers. I believe she will have enough integrity to take the FB post about Amos Rabor down.
