Trudy Metzger/Steve Stutzman

[Soloist]

How should this verse apply or not apply in this sort of situation?

I do not see abuse as a “small matter” between brothers in the church.

I see small in this like a parent saying "can you guys not figure out the littlest things?"

a note, I'm not specifying not to report, but from this thread it seems like the person may have been found not guilty from a legal stand point?
Seems to me that the church can certainly decide something here on their own at that point.
As far as reporting goes, I’m a mandatory reporter and even if I wasn’t, I would want to report abuse and be unwilling to go to a church that doesn’t. If leaders know about a situation of abuse, whether or not the person repents, I’d see it similar like finding out about a murder. Someone can repent, but part of that would be turning themselves into the authorities.

[JohnH]

I agree that whoever wrote the article was not being completely truthful with the “Amish” label, although it does appear like they grew up Amish and/or have Amish relatives.

What I meant by the “rot goes deep”, is that if you peel back the layers of this case, you’ll find that Amos Raber married a 16 year old girl to one of these guys. You’ll find that that the abuse victim was silenced by the church and the pastor, Ron Miller. You’ll find that when the abuse victim told trusted adults, one of them went on to do exactly the same things to her that she spoke up about. (This is how the brothers’ cases are connected).

The rot goes deep because so called spiritual leaders are not actually protecting the sheep. They are protecting wolves.

Yet none of that has anything to do with “the Amish” or the Amish church as an institution. You don’t do anything to bolster your credibility or make your case when you cite an article that has obvious problems with facts like that; the brothers do not appear to be Amish by any reasonable standard.

[Ernie]

I agree that whoever wrote the article was not being completely truthful with the “Amish” label, although it does appear like they grew up Amish and/or have Amish relatives.

What I meant by the “rot goes deep”, is that if you peel back the layers of this case, you’ll find that Amos Raber married a 16 year old girl to one of these guys. You’ll find that that the abuse victim was silenced by the church and the pastor, Ron Miller. You’ll find that when the abuse victim told trusted adults, one of them went on to do exactly the same things to her that she spoke up about. (This is how the brothers’ cases are connected).

The rot goes deep because so called spiritual leaders are not actually protecting the sheep. They are protecting wolves.

Yet none of that has anything to do with “the Amish” or the Amish church as an institution. You don’t do anything to bolster your credibility or make your case when you cite an article that has obvious problems with facts like that; the brothers do not appear to be Amish by any reasonable standard.

A commenter on that article says,
"I personally know this family and they definitely aren't Amish so please stick to the truth when you post stuff and don't drag the Amish thru the mud."

[ken_sylvania]

I am very disappointed in Amos Raber and I hope he offers an explanation on the matter. Amos Raber married the couple in 2020. The girl was signed off by some relatives. Could it be that Amos Raber was unaware of the prior abuse, by the groom.

I'm trying to think of an excuse, any kind of a story that would make me say "Oh, that makes sense. I totally agree that this 16 year old girl should be getting married to a 28 year old man."
SHE WAS ONLY SIXTEEN!!!!! HE IS ALMOST TWELVE YEARS OLDER THAN SHE IS!!!!

I get it. Some of you are going to say "Oh, but that was normal for many years. Sixteen year olds used to be considered adults!"

NO, THIS SHOULD NOT BE NORMAL! At some point, even if Raber "was unaware", he had a duty to investigate and find out why this 28 year old man had such an urgent need to marry this 16 year old girl.

[Soloist]

I am very disappointed in Amos Raber and I hope he offers an explanation on the matter. Amos Raber married the couple in 2020. The girl was signed off by some relatives. Could it be that Amos Raber was unaware of the prior abuse, by the groom.

I'm trying to think of an excuse, any kind of a story that would make me say "Oh, that makes sense. I totally agree that this 16 year old girl should be getting married to a 28 year old man."
SHE WAS ONLY SIXTEEN!!!!! HE IS ALMOST TWELVE YEARS OLDER THAN SHE IS!!!!

I get it. Some of you are going to say "Oh, but that was normal for many years. Sixteen year olds used to be considered adults!"

NO, THIS SHOULD NOT BE NORMAL! At some point, even if Raber "was unaware", he had a duty to investigate and find out why this 28 year old man had such an urgent need to marry this 16 year old girl.

Wife: yeah that’s a little confusing because my grandma got married when she was 16 and my grandfather was 27, but my first thought in this Raber situation would be that there might have been stuff going on beforehand which would be considered abuse. As far as it goes, I don’t think Grandma had a shotgun wedding, although I really don’t remember how old my uncle is. Grandma and grandpa also did not grow up in a community with as strong of a push on moral purity, which I think would increase the possibility of this being non-consensual.

[ken_sylvania]

I’ll be honest - that first comment isn’t completely off the rocker, given some of our experiences in the culture. The list of churches who dropped the ball in the Graber case is long…

I'd be surprised if all of the churches on the list actually had any connection with the Grabers or reason to report them. It looks like a shotgun listing of the conservative and semi-conservative Anabaptist churches in the area.

The victims were from Cuba Mennonite Church.
Amos Graber is minister at Townline
The ministers/bishops who were aware of what had happened relate to Living Faith, Abundant Grace, and Ekklesia on some level.
Parents/grandparents of some of those involved are Old Order Amish.

So not just a shotgun listing of Anabaptist churches but they didn't necessarily all have the same level of culpability.

[JohnH]

Have you ever talked with counselors or therapists that primarily work with Amish and Mennonite people?

I have, and as is widely supported. They said the problems with a she are not worse on those circles than in non-Amish, non-plain circles.

Trying to claim it is worse doesn’t help your case. I think the acceptable level is “zero” and want to see us get closer to that. But going around acting like ex Amish or non Amish people somehow are better off than Amish people is simply non-factual. A non-Amish, non-plain person is the most likely to be the subject of abuse in Holmes County.

Just because you haven’t heard of many cases doesn’t mean that abuse hasn’t happened. In fact, when you’re constantly nitpicking the people who are trying to protect children, you probably aren’t going to have survivors feel comfortable telling you their stories.

I don’t go around trying to get survivors to tell me their stories. I do observe whether situations I know about are taken seriously or not, and talk to other people who do do a lot of ministry to alleged victims. (I know a few people in the Amish circles who do who do a great deal of good. I can speak highly of the Dan church in this regard, Apostolic Christian Church, Holdemans, and others.)

I would believe you more about some things being a distraction from the work Trudy does if you actually applied those same principles to Steve Stutzman and his social media account. I’ve yet to see you do that. Steve’s camp said far more vile things than I’ve seen in Trudy’s posts, and to my knowledge he has yet to distance himself from those comments/people.

I have been highly critical of Stutzman since 2015 or so, culminating with him trying to duck out a back door when I confronted him when he showed up at a Hutterite gathering. His minions have personally harassed me in ridiculous ways. I have spoken out strongly against what he does both on and off social media.

However, Trudy’s followers don’t do themselves any favours when they make ridiculous, extreme statements. The part of that crowd who says they want to eradicate plain Anabaptism are particularly unhelpful. I wish folks like you would be comfortable condemning that even as we simultaneously make it clear abuse is unacceptable and trying to cover up abuse is unacceptable too.

[Grace]

Im going to shoot straight with you for a bit, Grace. Please understand I’m not trying to be mean or rude - I’m just sad mostly. I’ve heard the sentiments you express many times in the last 10 years.

Have you ever talked with counselors or therapists that primarily work with Amish and Mennonite people?

Just because you haven’t heard of many cases doesn’t mean that abuse hasn’t happened. In fact, when you’re constantly nitpicking the people who are trying to protect children, you probably aren’t going to have survivors feel comfortable telling you their stories.

I would believe you more about some things being a distraction from the work Trudy does if you actually applied those same principles to Steve Stutzman and his social media account. I’ve yet to see you do that. Steve’s camp said far more vile things than I’ve seen in Trudy’s posts, and to my knowledge he has yet to distance himself from those comments/people.

I’m trying to understand why you feel the way you do.

Just a friendly and kindly reminder.

Board guidelines:

- Use I statements. Speak for yourself and don't decide what someone else is meaning to say or exaggerate what someone else posts.
- Do not state that someone else is wrong or does not understand. State your own thoughts and opinions.

[Grace]

However, Trudy’s followers don’t do themselves any favours when they make ridiculous, extreme statements. The part of that crowd who says they want to eradicate plain Anabaptism are particularly unhelpful. I wish folks like you would be comfortable condemning that even as we simultaneously make it clear abuse is unacceptable and trying to cover up abuse is unacceptable too.

So true, and I might add, the ridiculous, extreme statements/comments on Facebook, do no favors for Trudy and her important work, either.

[Grace]

Amos Raber responded to his marrying the couple:

You are right. I married them and regret it deeply.

As soon as I was made aware of the truth and the allegations, I confronted Chris Allen and the families and told them I would’ve never married them had I known before. I have not and will not cover for a perpetrator.

As of the gap/age difference – I do regret that. I was hesitant at the time, but upon seeing the support from both sides of the family, we moved forward. I was told at the time that her parents signed off for them to get a marriage license.