Instruction Class/Catechism

[mike]

It is sort of interesting to me that the essential doctrines/practices of what it means to be a Christian disciple, are taught 3-6 months, for a 30-60 minute session or so, primarily once in some one's life. Wouldn't there be some good in these sorts of things being the primary focus of Christian discipleship and that one "coming up" in the system would be discipled in them prior to instruction class and baptism?

It's not that they only hear it once in their life. They may only hear it systematically once in their life when the teachers go over a pre-established outline that is always used. Otherwise, they get bits and pieces of the lessons over and over as part of other sermons. And as I mentioned earlier, some preachers may preach through the articles of faith every 5 or 10 years or more. But I'm not sure how common this is.

I am also curious about "how one passes" instruction class? Is it a "right answers" sort of thing? Is there a test/assessment/testimony/mental statement of agreement/signing a covenant? What if there are foundational things that one is struggling with, like say, "the goodness of God" due to a parent death in an untimely manner?

I don't know how most congregations do this, but in my experience, those leading out are looking for spiritual awakeness, spiritual interest, evidence that a person is turning his back on the world and casting his lot with the people of God.
In instruction classes where there is only doctrinal teaching and not personal discipling or mentoring, the teachers would never know whether a person is struggling with the goodness of God. But even if they were, I don't think that would necessarily disqualify them, unless they said they simply didn't have any belief.

This highlights the separate issue of the content of our sermons. There is very little that is systematic about our preaching, except perhaps when a preacher decides to do a series of some sort. Broad plans to cover major teachings of the church, not so much. Maybe that's why we Mennonites depend so heavily on the instruction class to take care of this.

Taking a different angle perhaps - though the basic doctrines of the church are important (i.e. the existence of God), perhaps they are more like the first-grade content of the church's curriculum. Perhaps they are like the building blocks that everything else is built on, but that really don't have to be repeated in every grade through 'college level.' All of those basics are assumed in every sermon that is preached, even if they aren't explicitly mentioned every Sunday.

In a way, I think children and youth who were brought up in the church really don't learn anything new in instruction class. They just learn the basic things that undergird all the teaching they have heard in their lives up to that point. I'm pretty sure there are no surprises. This would not be the case for a person not brought up in a Christian home or attending church.

[mike]

A huge issue in my mind is how to make instruction that is part of church life, whether instruction class, Bible study, Sunday school, topics, devotionals, or sermons something that is alive, compelling, meaningful, something that sticks in people's memory. I feel that we often have a huge deficit here. Much of all this instruction is repetition and rote in nature, and yes it should have those elements. But it does no good if it is not internalized. In terms of this thread, I wonder how to make instruction class something that is in fact internalized, and not just going through the motions.

[Ernie]

This highlights the separate issue of the content of our sermons. There is very little that is systematic about our preaching, except perhaps when a preacher decides to do a series of some sort. Broad plans to cover major teachings of the church, not so much. Maybe that's why we Mennonites depend so heavily on the instruction class to take care of this.

I really question whether churches with liturgy really get the doctrines taught all that much better.

Besides that, the average person attending a liturgical service only attends less than two times per month. So many are not going to get a good coverage. If I was in a liturgical church, I would still want to make sure that new members got all the basic lessons, and that they got them at a time when they were seriously personalizing the teachings. (some lessons could perhaps be skipped if during their time of seriously seeking, they heard a sermon on a particular doctrine.)

Taking a different angle perhaps - though the basic doctrines of the church are important (i.e. the existence of God), perhaps they are more like the first-grade content of the church's curriculum. Perhaps they are like the building blocks that everything else is built on, but that really don't have to be repeated in every grade through 'college level.' All of those basics are assumed in every sermon that is preached, even if they aren't explicitly mentioned every Sunday.

Exactly. Hebrews also talks about this.

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age. Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

In a way, I think children and youth who were brought up in the church really don't learn anything new in instruction class. They just learn the basic things that undergird all the teaching they have heard in their lives up to that point. I'm pretty sure there are no surprises.

And yet hearing it all one's life is not the same as personalizing it and preparing to make a public, lifelong commitment to God. When one is in this state of mind, the truths of scripture take on a personal added dimension.
I remember a well-known evangelist from my childhood saying that he could take any twelve-year-old who grew up in the church and ask them how to be saved and become part of the church and they could give the correct answers. But he feared that many such children never really mean business with God, and as such are a liability to the church rather than an asset.
Here is his obit for those who might have known him. https://www.secorfuneralhomes.com/obitu ... on-hoover/

And here is a testimony of a man who was one of those folks who knew the script but did not know Jesus. This man even became a schoolteacher. www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ-wGo_yRyM

[JetsforJesus]

Growing up in a conservative mennonite church, I was appalled when a teen and am still appalled at the social and political pressure on teens to join the church of their parents. The power imbalance on a teen who works for a church member, lives in church member owned home, and whose entire social life revolves around the church creates a situation where free will baptism is a myth.

[Ernie]

Growing up in a conservative mennonite church, I was appalled when a teen and am still appalled at the social and political pressure on teens to join the church of their parents. The power imbalance on a teen who works for a church member, lives in church member owned home, and whose entire social life revolves around the church creates a situation where free will baptism is a myth.

I hear what you are saying, but I think it is God's intention for all children to grow up and join the church of their parents, if their parents church is a God honoring church. It is up to the leaders and the members to make sure they aren't doing it as a rite of passage and that the children are truly willing to live and die for Christ.

When there was severe persecution, many did not join the church. Some children of Anabaptists went back to the Protestant churches.

So even though God intends that everyone will become part of the church, not all will be willing to pay the cost. The problem that I see is that today we take people into the church who can't even stand up for what is right or do something different than their friends if their friends are not making good choices. If they can't do that, I think it is quite evident that they certainly wouldn't be willing to die for Jesus, experience rough persecution, mocking, scorning, etc.

[barnhart]

A huge issue in my mind is how to make instruction that is part of church life, whether instruction class, Bible study, Sunday school, topics, devotionals, or sermons something that is alive, compelling, meaningful, something that sticks in people's memory. I feel that we often have a huge deficit here. Much of all this instruction is repetition and rote in nature, and yes it should have those elements. But it does no good if it is not internalized. In terms of this thread, I wonder how to make instruction class something that is in fact internalized, and not just going through the motions.

I suspect a contributing factor to the lack of engagement is the perception no one has authority to question anything. This is one of the blessings of adult new believers, they question everything and create a lot of engagement.

[joshuabgood]

Growing up in a conservative mennonite church, I was appalled when a teen and am still appalled at the social and political pressure on teens to join the church of their parents. The power imbalance on a teen who works for a church member, lives in church member owned home, and whose entire social life revolves around the church creates a situation where free will baptism is a myth.

I hear what you are saying, but I think it is God's intention for all children to grow up and join the church of their parents, if their parents church is a God honoring church. It is up to the leaders and the members to make sure they aren't doing it as a rite of passage and that the children are truly willing to live and die for Christ.

When there was severe persecution, many did not join the church. Some children of Anabaptists went back to the Protestant churches.

So even though God intends that everyone will become part of the church, not all will be willing to pay the cost. The problem that I see is that today we take people into the church who can't even stand up for what is right or do something different than their friends if their friends are not making good choices. If they can't do that, I think it is quite evident that they certainly wouldn't be willing to die for Jesus, experience rough persecution, mocking, scorning, etc.

One fairly easy and efficient solution is to wait until they are fully autonomous adults.

[JohnH]

Growing up in a conservative mennonite church, I was appalled when a teen and am still appalled at the social and political pressure on teens to join the church of their parents. The power imbalance on a teen who works for a church member, lives in church member owned home, and whose entire social life revolves around the church creates a situation where free will baptism is a myth.

It isn’t, considering some people never join the church in our circles, including some who choose to live with parents at home and/or work for other church members.

Of course, it’s a free country - they can live elsewhere if they want to. They can go work for someone else, too.

Their social life doesn’t have to revolve around church. You can make friends elsewhere. Yet despite all this I can think of several youth past age 18 who are not members yet do all of the above.

[JohnH]

One fairly easy and efficient solution is to wait until they are fully autonomous adults.

Does the Bible teach this?

How old is old enough? 18? 21? 26?

Given how other denominations tend to have almost no young people, I’ll keep our current ways of allowing young people who answer God’s call to be full-fledged church members, thanks.

[joshuabgood]

One fairly easy and efficient solution is to wait until they are fully autonomous adults.

Does the Bible teach this?

How old is old enough? 18? 21? 26?

Given how other denominations tend to have almost no young people, I’ll keep our current ways of allowing young people who answer God’s call to be full-fledged church members, thanks.

Well...how old were the disciples?

Are self sustaining ethnic enclaves the primary goal?