Demands to Denounce

[Szdfan]

If-then ..

If someone spends 10+ years defending the New York Yankees from criticism, I think it’s reasonable to infer they are a Yankees supporter.

That’s not a false dichotomy.

A false dichotomy would be claim that this person is either a Yankees fan or they’re lying. The dichotomy is limiting the possibility to only two options.

My statement…

If someone spends 10+ years defending the Yankees from criticism, I think it’s reasonable to infer they are a Yankees supporter.

…is an inference from observed behavior. I’m not saying that there are only two possibilities. I’m saying that one explanation is more probable than the other.

An observation that a person defends something over a long period of time means that they likely have some sort of sympathy, loyalty or identification with that thing is normal inductive reasoning.

So my argument isn’t that only two possibilities exist. It’s that long-term behavior provides evidence of someone’s sympathies and loyalties. Whether that inference is true or not is different from whether it’s a false dichotomy.

[JohnH]

If someone spent 10+ years criticizing Trump and arguing with his defenders, wouldn’t it be fair to describe them as anti-Trump?

It would really depend on the content of their arguments, and if it was something they brought up spontaneously over and over, or if they simply responded to people who decided to flood the zone with endless posts praising Trump (which we do have a fair bit of around here).

If someone spends 10+ years defending the New York Yankees from criticism, I think it’s reasonable to infer they are a Yankees supporter.

If someone spends over a decade defending the Dallas Cowboys from criticism, I think it’s reasonable to infer they are a Cowboys supporter.

In general, people do not spend 10+ years and thousands of posts defending something they don’t support.

When I was a kid, I found at my grandparents a pamphlet called “50 Reasons why Christians Should Not Belong to Labor Unions.” One of the reasons were biblical prohibitions against associating with the ungodly.

I bring this up because it raises a question for me: why spend over a decade defending something that you don’t want people to associate you with?

At what point does a long-term pattern of publicly defending a politician reasonably signal support for that politician?

Whilst I wouldn’t join a union myself (for specific reasons probably not the same as that pamphlet proposed), I would certainly defend unions against many of the criticisms levelled at them, and indeed I have done so right here on MD/MN.

[temporal1]

Whilst I wouldn’t join a union myself (for specific reasons probably not the same as that pamphlet proposed), I would certainly defend unions against many of the criticisms levelled at them, and indeed I have done so right here on MD/MN.

i’ve done similar on forum a number of times.
Usually something like, “i’m not against unions, per se” ..

i hope the majority read this as intended, not concluding i’m “anti-union”.
it’s evident, some will jump to that conclusion, then question and criticize it.

my perception of unions is, they demand alignment (for power). a natural problem for independent thinkers.

no one can control others’ responses. esp when, over years+years, no change.

- - - - - - -

The Trump phenom is a bit unique.
1) an entire party has chosen to devote #1 mission in his defeat; i blame lack of healthy leadership;

2) T doesn’t stand still.
he singlehandedly provides abundant fodder to keep airwaves humming, sometimes awful, often quite good. enough to inspire THINKING over status quo. i believe, a net positive. Many forum topics are dedicated to just one decision he’s made. Some are dedicated to criticism.

There has been “so much” criticism of T, on+off forum, RZehr/R7ehr started his “Good things” topic.
He started 2 Good things topics.

Trump
https://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?t=1343
biden
https://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?t=3638

Because R7ehr is among the best-balanced forum members, like HK, ken_s, GaryK, Robert, able to discern better from worse, while maintaining the basic right to NOT be part of rancorous partisan labeling. [Likely aided by not over-posting.]

imho

[Bootstrap]

I support Trump in that I’m willing to take the time to listen to all he’s doing- the whole what where when why and how of it all, and it’s been a blessing to hear a president have the understanding to point out what I saw as the train wreck firscriionbour country was headed before and take the bull by the horns and change direction. At 68 I can remember a much better cultural environment, healthier & actually happier, and definitely more reverence to God.

I'm 67, and I remember better times too. Stronger churches, less political polarization, less fear and hatred. I don't have the same view of Trump that you do, I don't think he is actually making America healthier and happier and closer to God, but I don't want to get lost in that in this thread, which is not really about Trump himself.

But since you’re not in the politics sub form, you would’ve missed how I shared that my daughter has totally cut me off until I quit supporting Trump. She has no idea to the extent that I support Trump because I never ever discuss it with her she just knows that I voted for him in 2016 20 and 2024 that I respected her wishes to not talk politics. However, since January I have been on the receiving ends of nasty text messages trying to pressure me to turn against him. And that when I quit supporting him, I know where to find her. These kind of hurtful ultimatums. I never ever did that to anyone, regardless of how I felt about having Obama as president.

Wow. I had no idea. I can't imagine how painful that is. I know people who simply don't want to have relationships with Trump supporters. I find that incredibly sad. I think it's important to have relationships across disagreements. I think political identity is often the primary identity in modern America, and that identity is often defined around Trump, whether someone is for or against him.

In the Kingdom of God, we have a different identity that has very little to do with Trump.

And really, Trump will only be president for a few more years. I assume he will be a much smaller part of all of our lives soon.

[Bootstrap]

If someone spent 10+ years criticizing Trump and arguing with his defenders, wouldn’t it be fair to describe them as anti-Trump?

I have been repelled by the president since 2000. Is there a word for that as well? Nonetheless I don't aspire to be anti- Trump as that would feel like falling short of the biblical mandate to "honor the King."

That's pretty much where I am coming from too.

[temporal1]

Valerie:
At 68 I can remember a much better cultural environment, healthier & actually happier, and definitely more reverence to God.

In my recent flights, i was encouraged to see a few handsome young HS/college age men, not in a group, just here+there, wearing tasteful Tshirts with lettering, like, “Jesus is king”, not shouting or in your face .. in+out of DFW, i’d not seen that before. i wondered if they’d met Robert.

i didn’t see the more expected “love is love” garb, altho some shops used the theme.

i noticed my grdaughter’s Catholic school graduating class is majority boys.
i’m pretty sure “the smart money” is focusing on boys and young men - to prep them for their much needed good leadership in families, churches, communities and the workplace. Nothing new! - Returning to what works best by God’s design.

the class is strongly mixed-culturally, students, faculty, staff, faith is the common denominator. by God’s plan.
https://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?t=4378

i’m glad to read about it and see it IRL.
i’m glad my grdaughter may not feel the pressure to deny her faith, as had been common for young people over years.

[Valerie]

I support Trump in that I’m willing to take the time to listen to all he’s doing- the whole what where when why and how of it all, and it’s been a blessing to hear a president have the understanding to point out what I saw as the train wreck firscriionbour country was headed before and take the bull by the horns and change direction. At 68 I can remember a much better cultural environment, healthier & actually happier, and definitely more reverence to God.

I'm 67, and I remember better times too. Stronger churches, less political polarization, less fear and hatred. I don't have the same view of Trump that you do, I don't think he is actually making America healthier and happier and closer to God, but I don't want to get lost in that in this thread, which is not really about Trump himself.

But since you’re not in the politics sub form, you would’ve missed how I shared that my daughter has totally cut me off until I quit supporting Trump. She has no idea to the extent that I support Trump because I never ever discuss it with her she just knows that I voted for him in 2016 20 and 2024 that I respected her wishes to not talk politics. However, since January I have been on the receiving ends of nasty text messages trying to pressure me to turn against him. And that when I quit supporting him, I know where to find her. These kind of hurtful ultimatums. I never ever did that to anyone, regardless of how I felt about having Obama as president.

Wow. I had no idea. I can't imagine how painful that is. I know people who simply don't want to have relationships with Trump supporters. I find that incredibly sad. I think it's important to have relationships across disagreements. I think political identity is often the primary identity in modern America, and that identity is often defined around Trump, whether someone is for or against him.

In the Kingdom of God, we have a different identity that has very little to do with Trump.

And really, Trump will only be president for a few more years. I assume he will be a much smaller part of all of our lives soon.

I never saw Trump as some sort of American “savior” so to speak at all in fact I have hoped those who don’t know Christ would learn through all of this that we CANNOT put our hopes in ANY man. I hope TRUMP sees that Light more than anything too as he needs Christ while professing his faith in God & consistently saying America needs God, I’ve not heard a president say that so often.

You are correct we just have a couple more years so why ruin relationships over this?? What I have picked up on by reading some peoples statements is the (hope for impeachment) and I think that is some aware this pressure on Trump’s supporters to term from him comes with a hope that by doing so we will help impeach him as well. Not jumping on that bandwagon though. If anything, one thing I see is that those who cannot cope with him as president should examine their hearts as to why those of us who were just upset about some of the Democrat presidents we’ve had yet it did not ruin our lives. Our faith is in our creator and his recognition that he is sovereign over all of this, and we simply trust him. They should see the difference in why we can handle things so much better when we have to tolerate a president that we have great concerns about if you cannot cope with this president it should tell you something about yourself. It should tell you something about your need for trust in The one true living God and his son Jesus Christ, as who we really should put our hopes in and that we could have the peace that passes all understanding in spite of the culture and politics around us.

[Valerie]

If someone spent 10+ years criticizing Trump and arguing with his defenders, wouldn’t it be fair to describe them as anti-Trump?

I have been repelled by the president since 2000. Is there a word for that as well? Nonetheless I don't aspire to be anti- Trump as that would feel like falling short of the biblical mandate to "honor the King."

That's pretty much where I am coming from too.

I understand why. I never paid attention to him at all until he announced running for President, I was shocked. I was also shocked at some of the people I respect that said that they were going to vote for him so I thought I better learn more. I certainly wouldn’t vote for him as Christian of the year by any stretch yet he does have a heart for God, but clearly needs Someone to reach him with a true gospel. I don’t have the false Hope of America being a godly or country because of Trump, but he certainly does defend a lot of Christianity, he certainly is not Anabaptist in his understanding of scripture., but neither are most denominations-
When said remember a better America which Trump does too, he at least was supporting Christians and surrounded himself with those with faith and stopped the push of Wokism. I’m thankful he at least sees that much. There’s a lot more I won’t bore everyone with what I see him trying to achieve.