Demands to Denounce

[Szdfan]

It has to do with spending years defending a person or a philosophy or a system. When people defend something or someone in isolated situations, we don't necessarily think of them as a supporter.

Well, that's because for the last 10+ years, this forum has had a few folks who seem to have made it their primary occupation to simply complain about a certain politician non-stop.

I am not entirely sure why. A lot of people here don't vote at all, and our view would be to avoid voting and getting involved in politics at all. But for whatever reason, this forum seems to be a medium in which to vent one's complaints about politicians one doesn't like. (We have a few non-Mennonites here who do the same for left wing people they don't like.)

If someone spent 10+ years criticizing Trump and arguing with his defenders, wouldn’t it be fair to describe them as anti-Trump?

[JohnH]

If someone spent 10+ years criticizing Trump and arguing with his defenders, wouldn’t it be fair to describe them as anti-Trump?

It would really depend on the content of their arguments, and if it was something they brought up spontaneously over and over, or if they simply responded to people who decided to flood the zone with endless posts praising Trump (which we do have a fair bit of around here).

[barnhart]

If someone spent 10+ years criticizing Trump and arguing with his defenders, wouldn’t it be fair to describe them as anti-Trump?

I have been repelled by the president since 2000. Is there a word for that as well? Nonetheless I don't aspire to be anti- Trump as that would feel like falling short of the biblical mandate to "honor the King."

[Valerie]

I think you have been clear about this all along, and I respect you. I also disagree with you on a lot of these things, but would be happy to have coffee with you or do a Bible study together or pray together. These are not things Christians should be dividing over.

Agreed but they are unfortunately.
Christians are dividing over other things as well- denominations are splitting on many differences that have nothing to do with Trump.

There are things I think worth dividing about - whether we accept the Bible's authority for sexual ethics and our understanding of male and female, for instance.

This is not one of them.

I'm curious, you identify as a Trump supporter. JohnH says that's a label people use as an insult. Have you experienced it that way, or do you see it just as a way of saying you support Trump? If I were to describe you as a Trump supporter, would that feel different than it does when you call yourself a Trump supporter?

I support Trump in that I’m willing to take the time to listen to all he’s doing- the whole what where when why and how of it all, and it’s been a blessing to hear a president have the understanding to point out what I saw as the train wreck firscriionbour country was headed before and take the bull by the horns and change direction. At 68 I can remember a much better cultural environment, healthier & actually happier, and definitely more reverence to God.

Have I been insulted? A handful of times, fortunately I live in a state that is much more supportive of Trump. I still see banners & large wooden signs. Old men come in to my store with their Trump hats on (they remember better times too)

But since you’re not in the politics sub form, you would’ve missed how I shared that my daughter has totally cut me off until I quit supporting Trump. She has no idea to the extent that I support Trump because I never ever discuss it with her she just knows that I voted for him in 2016 20 and 2024 that I respected her wishes to not talk politics. However, since January I have been on the receiving ends of nasty text messages trying to pressure me to turn against him. And that when I quit supporting him, I know where to find her. These kind of hurtful ultimatums. I never ever did that to anyone, regardless of how I felt about having Obama as president.

[Szdfan]

Agreed but they are unfortunately.
Christians are dividing over other things as well- denominations are splitting on many differences that have nothing to do with Trump.

There are things I think worth dividing about - whether we accept the Bible's authority for sexual ethics and our understanding of male and female, for instance.

This is not one of them.

I'm curious, you identify as a Trump supporter. JohnH says that's a label people use as an insult. Have you experienced it that way, or do you see it just as a way of saying you support Trump? If I were to describe you as a Trump supporter, would that feel different than it does when you call yourself a Trump supporter?

I support Trump in that I’m willing to take the time to listen to all he’s doing- the whole what where when why and how of it all, and it’s been a blessing to hear a president have the understanding to point out what I saw as the train wreck firscriionbour country was headed before and take the bull by the horns and change direction. At 68 I can remember a much better cultural environment, healthier & actually happier, and definitely more reverence to God.

Have I been insulted? A handful of times, fortunately I live in a state that is much more supportive of Trump. I still see banners & large wooden signs. Old men come in to my store with their Trump hats on (they remember better times too)

But since you’re not in the politics sub form, you would’ve missed how I shared that my daughter has totally cut me off until I quit supporting Trump. She has no idea to the extent that I support Trump because I never ever discuss it with her she just knows that I voted for him in 2016 20 and 2024 that I respected her wishes to not talk politics. However, since January I have been on the receiving ends of nasty text messages trying to pressure me to turn against him. And that when I quit supporting him, I know where to find her. These kind of hurtful ultimatums. I never ever did that to anyone, regardless of how I felt about having Obama as president.

Thanks for sharing, Valerie. As I wrote elsewhere, I’m deeply sorry about your estrangement from your daughter. What you’re describing is painful, and I’m sorry you’re experiencing that.

In regards to this conversation with John:

I’m not going to claim that I’m a “red state liberal,” because Colorado isn’t a red state, but I do live in Congressional District 4, the most conservative district in the state. Lauren Boebert is my representative.

Many of my neighbors, colleagues, friends, and loved ones openly describe themselves as Trump supporters and don’t seem offended by the term. One of my neighbors had a “Trump /JFK Jr. 2020” banner posted prominently on the fence next to the road.

I understand that some liberals use “Trump supporter” as an insult, and I understand why that might make some people uncomfortable with the label. But that doesn’t change the fact that many conservatives and Republicans use the same term about themselves.

That’s what I find so confusing about John’s claim that calling people a “Trump supporter” or “MAGA” is confusing.

If millions of people use the term to describe themselves, “Trump supporter” is not inherently derogatory.

[Szdfan]

If someone spent 10+ years criticizing Trump and arguing with his defenders, wouldn’t it be fair to describe them as anti-Trump?

I have been repelled by the president since 2000. Is there a word for that as well?

Elder anti-Trump ancestor.

Nonetheless I don't aspire to be anti- Trump as that would feel like falling short of the biblical mandate to "honor the King."

I don’t aspire to be “anti-Trump” either, but it doesn’t bother me when people call me that. I believe Trump is a moral catastrophe so I don’t mind if people believe I’m opposed to him.

[Szdfan]

If someone spent 10+ years criticizing Trump and arguing with his defenders, wouldn’t it be fair to describe them as anti-Trump?

It would really depend on the content of their arguments, and if it was something they brought up spontaneously over and over, or if they simply responded to people who decided to flood the zone with endless posts praising Trump (which we do have a fair bit of around here).

If someone spends 10+ years defending the New York Yankees from criticism, I think it’s reasonable to infer they are a Yankees supporter.

If someone spends over a decade defending the Dallas Cowboys from criticism, I think it’s reasonable to infer they are a Cowboys supporter.

In general, people do not spend 10+ years and thousands of posts defending something they don’t support.

When I was a kid, I found at my grandparents a pamphlet called “50 Reasons why Christians Should Not Belong to Labor Unions.” One of the reasons were biblical prohibitions against associating with the ungodly.

I bring this up because it raises a question for me: why spend over a decade defending something that you don’t want people to associate you with?

At what point does a long-term pattern of publicly defending a politician reasonably signal support for that politician?

[temporal1]

21 Either-Or Fallacy Examples
https://helpfulprofessor.com/either-or- ... -examples/


God creates without bounds. Thankfully, there is life beyond either-or.

This is not meant to say, either-or is never useful.

Nor that anyone might prefer to choose either-or “liberally” or always, at will. Personal choice.
Just to say, not everyone is locked into either-or constraints.

If either-or is the demand, frustration and disappointment, even disbelief, will happen. Not intended. Maybe unavoidable.

[Szdfan]

21 Either-Or Fallacy Examples
https://helpfulprofessor.com/either-or- ... -examples/


God creates without bounds. Thankfully, there is life beyond either-or.

This is not meant to say, either-or is never useful.

Nor that anyone might prefer to choose either-or “liberally” or always, at will. Personal choice.
Just to say, not everyone is locked into either-or constraints.

If either-or is the demand, frustration and disappointment, even disbelief, will happen. Not intended. Maybe unavoidable.

What’s the false dichotomy you think is being made here?

[temporal1]

If-then ..

If someone spends 10+ years defending the New York Yankees from criticism, I think it’s reasonable to infer they are a Yankees supporter.