Demands to Denounce

[JohnH]

I think elections determine who the president is. I don't think they give the president the right to do whatever he wants, or guarantee that the people will approve of everything he does. Democracies also have freedom of expression.

I don't know what aspect of democracy you think people are denying when they disagree with Trump.

It's more the claims that whatever Trump is or is doing is somehow against the will of the people. It's a farcical claim when he's won 2 out of 3 elections.

It's only become "apparent" because you project that onto other people instead of engaging in the substance of the discussion. You insist that's the only reason, but that's on you, not on the other person. If you want to understand the other person, you have to engage with the other person, not brand them and dismiss them at the start of the conversation using Trump-related labels.

I have. I've asked if objections to things are about the policy at hand, and if so, what their position is on it being done for a long time (like the federal government negotiating binding settlements with itself as a way to effectively legislate in a judiciary-proof fashion). It's a longstanding problem. But for some reason, it only gets brought up and is only a problem when a certain politician does it.

Generally speaking, I don't like seeing the executive branch just gaining more and more power as the federal government indeed gets bigger and more powerful. But that process started way back with Lincoln and reached a fever pitch with FDR, and it doesn't really seem to be something that is changing anytime soon. It's just the way that it is.

If folks wanted to talk about principled change that isn't based on personality or ideology, that would be one thing. But when the talk is just about hating one man, well, that's what it is, and I think that's fundamentally undesirable and a debasement of public discourse.

It also isn't effective. Just look at where things are now.

[Bootstrap]

I think elections determine who the president is. I don't think they give the president the right to do whatever he wants, or guarantee that the people will approve of everything he does. Democracies also have freedom of expression.

I don't know what aspect of democracy you think people are denying when they disagree with Trump.

It's more the claims that whatever Trump is or is doing is somehow against the will of the people. It's a farcical claim when he's won 2 out of 3 elections.

I still don't understand.

Are you saying it is impossible for an elected president to do something that is against the will of the people? That makes no sense to me.

If folks wanted to talk about principled change that isn't based on personality or ideology, that would be one thing. But when the talk is just about hating one man, well, that's what it is, and I think that's fundamentally undesirable and a debasement of public discourse.

To be blunt, I think you often take discussions that are about issues and insist they are about hating Trump. And I think that's on you, not on the other person. Perhaps it's a habit worth reconsidering?

[Bootstrap]

This is a claim you make with some frequency. Can you please point to some specific posts that do this?

My impression is that nobody does this, but the accusation keeps circulating. I could be wrong. You seem to believe that this happens often. You could be wrong. Either way, in the name of truth and brotherhood, I think it would be right to either:

1. Provide clear examples of posts that demand that someone denounce a political figure. With links to the original posts, so we can clearly know that this happens, or else
2. Stop making this claim as though it were true.

If people are actually doing this, they should stop. If they are not, it would be good to stop promoting false narratives that divide and polarize. Either way, this is important to track down.

The silence is deafening.

An obvious example is when pretty much any post I make in the Politics arena that isn't framed as 100% rejection of Trump gets me labelled as a "Trump supporter". You know it's an insult, I know it's an insult, you know it's meant to hurt, and I know it's meant to hurt. Yet it keeps being said, over and over.

I didn't know you post in the Politics arena, since I am not a member. But this does not seem like anyone actually insisting that you denounce Trump, is it?

I'm curious, do other people see "Trump Supporter" as an insult? To me, it is a neutral term that describes someone who supports Trump. Have I labelled you a "Trump Supporter" in my own posts? If so, where? (I didn't find examples in a quick search, but sometimes I miss things.

I'm quite sick of it. A great place to start would be for you to at least admit that I am not a Trump supporter and never have one, and to quit repeating falsehoods that I am.

Why do I need to take a stand on whether you are a Trump supporter, one way or another?

[Valerie]

I’m a Trump supporter, and am not ashamed of it.
There’s a lot he says that makes me want to get my duct tape out of the drawer & run to DC with it.
I watch a LOT of Fox News (unashamedly as peoples opinions matter didly squat to me)
Poll #s do not matter to me as daily I see people on the street interviewed about various current event topics & it’s amazing how ill informed they are. That’s okay, they have other things they’d rather do with their time that’s fine. But it also tells me they don’t really understand a lot of the things that Trump is doing and why because he takes a lot of time and so do people that I highly respect, explaining what he is doing, and it makes complete sense to me.
I’ve also heard several people I highly respect because I take the time to listen to them say that President Trump is the best president in their lifetime. These are not the average Joe Schmoes walking down the street. These are people that have spent their lifetime trying to make the country a better place and they happen to understand what Trump is doing and agree with him so the average person polled about whether they approve of Trump’s performance probably do not take a lot of time trying to understand all things Trump because he is doing more than any president I have ever seen in my lifetime to try to get this country back on track .

[JohnH]

I'm curious, do other people see "Trump Supporter" as an insult? To me, it is a neutral term that describes someone who supports Trump. Have I labelled you a "Trump Supporter" in my own posts? If so, where? (I didn't find examples in a quick search, but sometimes I miss things.

If you aren't interested in discussing in good faith, we can't really proceed any further in this conversation.

Part of the problem of requiring complete allegiance (or anti-allegiance) to some political figure is that part of the de-humanising tactic is to tar and feather someone as a "supporter" of the "anti-person" figure. Of course, one can be cute and pretend they don't know that this happens or is part of what happens.

For me, personally, it's particularly galling considering I've probably done more to dissuade people who would have otherwise cast a ballot for Trump (in multiple elections) than, I suspect, anyone else on this forum. But none of that matters. Nope. Since I won't declare a full and total denunciation, I, too, am someone who should be dehumanised and demonised.

And it's not just me. One of the more irritating things is the repeated accusations levelled at Grace that she is some kind of Trump booster, even though she repeatedly expresses dissatisfaction with things about Trump. Nope. Still not good enough. It's a one-dimensional view of people: they're either good people (who hate Trump), or bad people (we know who is a bad person because a bad person is someone who has not committed to hating Trump).

[Anthony]

I'm curious, do other people see "Trump Supporter" as an insult? To me, it is a neutral term that describes someone who supports Trump. Have I labelled you a "Trump Supporter" in my own posts? If so, where? (I didn't find examples in a quick search, but sometimes I miss things.

If you aren't interested in discussing in good faith, we can't really proceed any further in this conversation.

Part of the problem of requiring complete allegiance (or anti-allegiance) to some political figure is that part of the de-humanising tactic is to tar and feather someone as a "supporter" of the "anti-person" figure. Of course, one can be cute and pretend they don't know that this happens or is part of what happens.

For me, personally, it's particularly galling considering I've probably done more to dissuade people who would have otherwise cast a ballot for Trump (in multiple elections) than, I suspect, anyone else on this forum. But none of that matters. Nope. Since I won't declare a full and total denunciation, I, too, am someone who should be dehumanised and demonised.

And it's not just me. One of the more irritating things is the repeated accusations levelled at Grace that she is some kind of Trump booster, even though she repeatedly expresses dissatisfaction with things about Trump. Nope. Still not good enough. It's a one-dimensional view of people: they're either good people (who hate Trump), or bad people (we know who is a bad person because a bad person is someone who has not committed to hating Trump).

I just think this kind of language being used around being insinuated as a trump supporter on mennonite online forum is so crazy its funny.

Have you considered reporting the “dehumanizing tar and feathering” to the moderators? This must be breaking some sort of rule

[Bootstrap]

I'm curious, do other people see "Trump Supporter" as an insult? To me, it is a neutral term that describes someone who supports Trump. Have I labelled you a "Trump Supporter" in my own posts? If so, where? (I didn't find examples in a quick search, but sometimes I miss things.

If you aren't interested in discussing in good faith, we can't really proceed any further in this conversation.

I am. And I am doing my best to treat this as a good faith discussion on both sides.

Part of the problem of requiring complete allegiance (or anti-allegiance) to some political figure is that part of the de-humanising tactic is to tar and feather someone as a "supporter" of the "anti-person" figure. Of course, one can be cute and pretend they don't know that this happens or is part of what happens.

For me, personally, it's particularly galling considering I've probably done more to dissuade people who would have otherwise cast a ballot for Trump (in multiple elections) than, I suspect, anyone else on this forum. But none of that matters. Nope. Since I won't declare a full and total denunciation, I, too, am someone who should be dehumanised and demonised.

I do think there are people on both sides that tend to label people primarily according to their view of Trump and who see one of these two sides as the "right" one. That's the kind of tribal factionalism that I think we should all treat as sinful.

But I was responding to a post where you suggested that I am repeatedly calling you a Trump supporter and saying that needs to stop. I did a quick search, and I don't think I am doing that. I don't think I"m generally doing anything I would call "tarring and feathering". I don't think I am being cute when I say this. I could be wrong, but again, concrete posts would be helpful so I can see what you are talking about, with links to the original posts. Otherwise, I have no way of knowing if this is true.

And again, where has ANYONE every demanded that you declare a full and total denunciation? One example, for starters, please.

And it's not just me. One of the more irritating things is the repeated accusations levelled at Grace that she is some kind of Trump booster, even though she repeatedly expresses dissatisfaction with things about Trump. Nope. Still not good enough. It's a one-dimensional view of people: they're either good people (who hate Trump), or bad people (we know who is a bad person because a bad person is someone who has not committed to hating Trump).

Here's one thing I do observe: some people sometimes seem to be very, very sensitive about criticism against Trump, taking it personally, almost as though it were directed against them. I don't know what that is about. Some of these people are very clear that they do not want to be seen as Trump supporters or Trump boosters.

In general, I think it would be helpful if all of us were less sensitive about Trump, if we didn't feel the need to label others, and if we could respond to what people are actually saying and not what we imagine they must really be saying. Ask clarifying questions if need be. Draw people out. Make discussion safe.

[JohnH]

In general, I think it would be helpful if all of us were less sensitive about Trump, if we didn't feel the need to label others, and if we could respond to what people are actually saying and not what we imagine they must really be saying. Ask clarifying questions if need be. Draw people out. Make discussion safe.

The simple fact is that discussion about this is not "safe". Some (not all, not saying you are one of them) on the anti-Trump faction are always trying to draw out a statement from anyone who isn't anti-Trump to somehow prove they are a "bad" person, that they hold some kind of "unacceptable" position, something that can be used to ostracise them from society and prove once and for all that they should be demonised.

It's very sad to watch purported Christians in particular engage in this behaviour.

[Bootstrap]

I’m a Trump supporter, and am not ashamed of it.
There’s a lot he says that makes me want to get my duct tape out of the drawer & run to DC with it.
I watch a LOT of Fox News (unashamedly as peoples opinions matter didly squat to me)
Poll #s do not matter to me as daily I see people on the street interviewed about various current event topics & it’s amazing how ill informed they are. That’s okay, they have other things they’d rather do with their time that’s fine. But it also tells me they don’t really understand a lot of the things that Trump is doing and why because he takes a lot of time and so do people that I highly respect, explaining what he is doing, and it makes complete sense to me.
I’ve also heard several people I highly respect because I take the time to listen to them say that President Trump is the best president in their lifetime. These are not the average Joe Schmoes walking down the street. These are people that have spent their lifetime trying to make the country a better place and they happen to understand what Trump is doing and agree with him so the average person polled about whether they approve of Trump’s performance probably do not take a lot of time trying to understand all things Trump because he is doing more than any president I have ever seen in my lifetime to try to get this country back on track .

I think you have been clear about this all along, and I respect you. I also disagree with you on a lot of these things, but would be happy to have coffee with you or do a Bible study together or pray together. These are not things Christians should be dividing over.

[ohio jones]

I’ve also heard several people I highly respect because I take the time to listen to them say that President Trump is the best president in their lifetime.

That's okay if they are younger than 38.