Demands to Denounce

[ken_sylvania]

- 50% of all content on a daily basis on MN is taking place on that subforum with JohnH, bootstrap, sdzfan, me, and others posting consistently and talking/arguing about current political events. This is the context of the entire thread and the accusations of denouncing trump.

Bootstrap, is this true? You've gone over to the dark side?

[Szdfan]

And JohnH, if it is that distasteful to talk politics, well, there are other options besides mucking out the chicken barn.

I don’t understand how participating in the politics form is herding the discussion from non-political forums. It’s less mucking out the chicken barn and more pooping in the barn yourself.

[barnhart]

I grew so weary of people adjudicating if comments belong in the politics forum or not that I start all threads there just in case.

[Bootstrap]

You wouldn’t pick up on it unless you were on the receiving end but I know what he means.

Here's the problem I have: this is an account of what I am apparently thinking or feeling or saying, and I can't imagine thinking or feeling or saying those things. So ... someone else owns my inner thought life, and claims are true even if nobody can find posts that demonstrate that?

How would you feel if we did that to you? Do I get to speak for what goes on in your inner life? Or are my thoughts and feelings and writings the things that I actually think and feel and write?

[Bootstrap]

- 50% of all content on a daily basis on MN is taking place on that subforum with JohnH, bootstrap, sdzfan, me, and others posting consistently and talking/arguing about current political events. This is the context of the entire thread and the accusations of denouncing trump.

Bootstrap, is this true? You've gone over to the dark side?

No I never joined the politics subforum. JohnH, have you?

[Bootstrap]

... yet I have been accused of supporting and defending him because I don't "denounce" him as a person.

Again, I would like to see at least one clear example of this.

Do you think there are times that you do support and denounce him? Do you think there are times you take criticism of Trump personally?

[Bootstrap]

There is a degree of difference between denouncing a person and denouncing their actions, of course. But as a way of shutting down or deflecting discussion, they are very similar. When someone calls into question the actions of a political figure and the predictable response is "but did you denounce the other party when they did something or other years ago?" it's just a descent into the morass of political squabbling. There are better ways of engaging the subject.

When it's about a particular action or policy, it seems quite appropriate to ask if their opposition is to that action or policy or merely opposition to the person doing it.

Isn't that insisting the other person doesn't mean what they say they mean, and you should "own" them, making sure they cannot discuss the point because they have to fend off the personal attack instead?

[Soloist]

... yet I have been accused of supporting and defending him because I don't "denounce" him as a person.

Again, I would like to see at least one clear example of this.

Do you think there are times that you do support and denounce him? Do you think there are times you take criticism of Trump personally?

I think your timing is terrible and this is probably not the appropriate time to be asking these questions.

[Szdfan]

Part of my issue with this conversation is the way the word “denounce” is being used.

The word “denounce” means “to publicly and strongly condemn, criticize, or accuse someone or something as being wrong, evil, or blameworthy.”

“Publicly” is the key here. I haven’t seen anyone on this forum demand that another participant make some sort of public statement denouncing Trump.

What I do see is the word “denounce” being used to collapse together very different things:

• Criticism of Trump
• Disagreement with Trump
• Opposition to a policy
• Calling him immoral
• Refusing to defend him
• Rejecting him entirely

Those are not the same thing, and I think treating them as interchangeable creates confusion.

What I generally see happening is that one group is criticizing Trump and another group is defending him. That’s normal.

What adds to my confusion is that some people who have spent years defending Trump or arguing against his critics bristle at being described as “Trump supporters.”

To me, “supporter” does not mean “uncritical sycophant.” Most people do not agree with everything a politician they support says or does. You can support a politician, vote for a politician, or defend a politician while still criticizing them.

So I wonder if some of what is being described as pressure to “denounce” Trump is actually the experience of reading criticism of Trump or disagreement with your defense of him.

So I want to be clear with the people I argue with here: your humanity is not up for debate. Your right to have an opinion is not up for debate. We are all created in the image of God.

I also have the right to my opinions. I have the right to oppose the President. I have the right to criticize his actions and policies. I have the right to disagree with arguments made in his defense.

So yes, I will argue with you. I will disagree with you. I may even think your arguments are wrong.

But my belief that you are wrong has no bearing whatsoever on my belief that you possess inherent worth and dignity as a human being.

All of us are more than our political beliefs and opinions.

[JohnH]

The source of your confusion is that you consider anyone who worn make a blanket denunciation of Trump to be a “Trump supporter”.

This is the problem with polarised American politics today.
Calling me, for example, a “Trump supporter” is both an act of attempting to dehumanise me and also an outright lie. Yet you keep doing it.