Ordaining women to offices of minister, bishop, elder, pastor, etc.

[barnhart]

I also read books written by women...

I have benefitted from encouragement, words of wisdom, insight into spiritual gifts, and rebuke from women in the church.

[joshuabgood]

I think a New Testament case can be made for patriarchy, complementarianism, or egalitarianism, in the home or in the church, depending on which verses are emphasized. Rather than take a position, I prefer letting each concept have expression in its proper situation, as long as it does not violate the teachings of other NT scriptures for that situation. I lean towards complementarianism as a functional reality without embracing it as a theological reality.

Likewise, I think a NT case can be made for women being completely silent in the gathered assembly (except for singing), praying or speaking in the gathered assembly as long as it is not teaching, or praying and prophesying in the gathered assembly depending on which verses are emphasized. Again, without better clarity in the NT, I think God can bless honest efforts to follow all the teachings in the NT regarding women speaking in the church. If a person picks and chooses the verses that suit his worldview, and let those verses outrank all the other verses, I don't consider this an honest or honorable way of approaching the New Testament.

I mostly agree with this post...however, it isn't clear to me that there is a clear exception for singing if one goes with a hard literal approach of "being silent."

[joshuabgood]

Wife: I found it kind of odd when my daughter started occasionally having morning devotions for her class. Upper grade doesn’t do that, and I assumed none of them did that for the girls, although it is useful for them to know how to do it if they become a school teacher, etc.. Besides, the non-Christian children have to do devotions as well once they get into the older classes.

May or may not be helpful, but in my view, school isn't church. We don't do communions, baptisms, weddings, or funerals. So women voicing inspirational thoughts, prophetic words from scripture, etc...seems appropriate to me and pretty much noncontroversial outside of a church context?

I also read books written by women. This includes Anabaptist women, such as Anything but Simple, written by Lucinda J. Miller. Also it includes women I might disagree with in various areas, such as women's ordination. I've read a couple books written by Tish Harrison Warren, an Anglican priest, for instance. I agree with the way I saw Tim Challies put it: God has reserved some roles for men (husband, presbyter, preacher). But He gives gifts to men and women alike. This includes gifts - and abilities - like skill in writing, skill in exegesis, and spiritual wisdom.

It isn't clear to me that "preacher" is a role formally organized by God. The contemporary, really protestant, emphasis on a long monologue being the center of the service is a relatively new invention and only support biblically by smallest of evidences. Regarding people bringing prophetic words, it seems women also, per Corinthians 13, are empowered to bring something. Bringing a prophetic word in the assembly seems like a totally different subject then the 'elder' question or church governance question.

[Silentreader]

May or may not be helpful, but in my view, school isn't church. We don't do communions, baptisms, weddings, or funerals. So women voicing inspirational thoughts, prophetic words from scripture, etc...seems appropriate to me and pretty much noncontroversial outside of a church context?

I also read books written by women. This includes Anabaptist women, such as Anything but Simple, written by Lucinda J. Miller. Also it includes women I might disagree with in various areas, such as women's ordination. I've read a couple books written by Tish Harrison Warren, an Anglican priest, for instance. I agree with the way I saw Tim Challies put it: God has reserved some roles for men (husband, presbyter, preacher). But He gives gifts to men and women alike. This includes gifts - and abilities - like skill in writing, skill in exegesis, and spiritual wisdom.

It isn't clear to me that "preacher" is a role formally organized by God. The contemporary, really protestant, emphasis on a long monologue being the center of the service is a relatively new invention and only support biblically by smallest of evidences. Regarding people bringing prophetic words, it seems women also, per Corinthians 13, are empowered to bring something. Bringing a prophetic word in the assembly seems like a totally different subject then the 'elder' question or church governance question.

Acts 20:7-9 ?

[JohnH]

It isn't clear to me that "preacher" is a role formally organized by God. The contemporary, really protestant, emphasis on a long monologue being the center of the service is a relatively new invention and only support biblically by smallest of evidences. Regarding people bringing prophetic words, it seems women also, per Corinthians 13, are empowered to bring something. Bringing a prophetic word in the assembly seems like a totally different subject then the 'elder' question or church governance question.

I don't see how women can be "preaching" in the public assembly and yet also remain silent in church. Overall, the fruit born by Christian groups that decide to adopt women to preach and teach in church generally is not the fruit we want to see of Christian churches; I also have the question of why anyone who thinks this is better doesn't just go and join one of the many liberal-progressive (or even mainstream / moderate) groups that do so. Why is the pressure always on the remaining biblical conservatives that they, too, have to change?

Overall, God presents himself as a father, and Jesus as his son, and generally the Bible teaches us that leadership is meant to be a role that men fill. A large part of accepting God's plan for humanity is accepting this part of his plan.

[joshuabgood]

It isn't clear to me that "preacher" is a role formally organized by God. The contemporary, really protestant, emphasis on a long monologue being the center of the service is a relatively new invention and only support biblically by smallest of evidences. Regarding people bringing prophetic words, it seems women also, per Corinthians 13, are empowered to bring something. Bringing a prophetic word in the assembly seems like a totally different subject then the 'elder' question or church governance question.

I don't see how women can be "preaching" in the public assembly and yet also remain silent in church. Overall, the fruit born by Christian groups that decide to adopt women to preach and teach in church generally is not the fruit we want to see of Christian churches; I also have the question of why anyone who thinks this is better doesn't just go and join one of the many liberal-progressive (or even mainstream / moderate) groups that do so. Why is the pressure always on the remaining biblical conservatives that they, too, have to change?

Overall, God presents himself as a father, and Jesus as his son, and generally the Bible teaches us that leadership is meant to be a role that men fill. A large part of accepting God's plan for humanity is accepting this part of his plan.

Your argument is with 1 Corinthians chapter 11 and Paul, not me, regarding women bringing a prophetic word.

[JohnH]

Your argument is with 1 Corinthians chapter 11 and Paul, not me, regarding women bringing a prophetic word.

It doesn't say this has to be done in a public assembly. For example, I pray at home, and so does my wife. Sometimes together and sometimes separately.

[joshuabgood]

Your argument is with 1 Corinthians chapter 11 and Paul, not me, regarding women bringing a prophetic word.

It doesn't say this has to be done in a public assembly. For example, I pray at home, and so does my wife. Sometimes together and sometimes separately.

It seems to me to be clear that the context of the book is the context of public worship. How to do communion in the assembly. How to speak in tongues in the assembly. How to use the gifts in the assembly. How to prophecy and pray in the assembly. How to not offend angels that appear in the assembly. Etc...it stretches credulity for me to assume that this chapter for some reason only applies to a home. Also, keep in mind, there weren't any "church services" in buildings, there were simply meetings in homes, like Lydia's. That is why legalistic types of arrangements where women speak in a "preservice meeting" where the same people are in the same space, don't feel compelling to me.

[joshuabgood]

I also read books written by women. This includes Anabaptist women, such as Anything but Simple, written by Lucinda J. Miller. Also it includes women I might disagree with in various areas, such as women's ordination. I've read a couple books written by Tish Harrison Warren, an Anglican priest, for instance. I agree with the way I saw Tim Challies put it: God has reserved some roles for men (husband, presbyter, preacher). But He gives gifts to men and women alike. This includes gifts - and abilities - like skill in writing, skill in exegesis, and spiritual wisdom.

It isn't clear to me that "preacher" is a role formally organized by God. The contemporary, really protestant, emphasis on a long monologue being the center of the service is a relatively new invention and only support biblically by smallest of evidences. Regarding people bringing prophetic words, it seems women also, per Corinthians 13, are empowered to bring something. Bringing a prophetic word in the assembly seems like a totally different subject then the 'elder' question or church governance question.

Acts 20:7-9 ?

It seems clear to me from the surrounding context that this was a marked exception to the usual pattern.

[JohnH]

It seems to me to be clear that the context of the book is the context of public worship. How to do communion in the assembly. How to speak in tongues in the assembly. How to use the gifts in the assembly. How to prophecy and pray in the assembly. How to not offend angels that appear in the assembly. Etc...it stretches credulity for me to assume that this chapter for some reason only applies to a home. Also, keep in mind, there weren't any "church services" in buildings, there were simply meetings in homes, like Lydia's. That is why legalistic types of arrangements where women speak in a "preservice meeting" where the same people are in the same space, don't feel compelling to me.

The context of public worship was that services were held in synagogues and continued to be conducted the same way they had always had services in synagogues. (Some of the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is still unchanged to this day from pre-Christian synagogue liturgies, and if you attend a Mass with the liturgy spoken in Syriac or Aramaic, probably even uses some of the same words that would have been used in Paul and Jesus' time.)

The early Christians would have been accustomed to gathering in places set aside for worship services and would have even had defined leadership. This is quite clear from both the New Testament and also from the other historical records we have about these things. Early Christianity was not the same thing as a 1990s-era house church.