Ordaining women to offices of minister, bishop, elder, pastor, etc.

[JohnH]

Personally, I like the term, "nonhierarchical-complementarianism." Awkward I know...but scratches the itch. Jesus didn't promote hierarchy. He came not to be served but to serve. Men are not called to subordinate their wives but to do like Christ, lay down their lives. Christ never coerces us. His Kingship is not an authority like the scribes. It's upside down. But the term above, acknowledges there are general biological differences between men and women, as opposed to radical egalitarianism which defines womanhood out of existence, methinks.

What would your viewpoint be on the apparent hierarchy described in 1 Corinthians 11 regarding God being the head of Christ?

[JohnH]

I'm just pointing out that conservatives are about 10% of plain people. About 90% are Old Order and take the silence directive quite literally.

Good point, I said "generally" with the idea of there being a continuum. I was not defining "silence" to include singing, but if it does, then Old Orders would have complete silence from women during the actual service.

An area of interest to me is conservative groups that do ordain women, per the original thread title. The only ones I am aware of are conservative Holiness type groups and offshoots of them such as the Church of God - Restoration group.

[barnhart]

I recall an elderly dear sister, from the early days when I was there, who formerly I think used to preach in Jamaica prior to moving to NYC and attending FJMC, that during *testimony time,* often had some good prophetic words and scripture exegesis =). I remember smiling as I could hear it breaking out =).

Seriously though, is there a place for a veiled woman to bring a prophetic word from scripture to a group of Christians (notice I didn't say assembly to avoid that) of mixed genders and the men can be edified from said prophetic word and the from the Lord through her word? I think yes...per Corinthians 11. Bringing a prophetic word is not by definition church leadership or eldership whatever one thinks. And a long "sermon" itself is questionable with regard to that being a "main part" of the service if one examines early church models. I think sometimes our mental modes around "church" need to be leaned on.

We still don't have that segment the service ironed out, we have offended sisters by asking them to stop. It can be a challenge for the moderator to know where those lines are.

[JimFoxvog]

I think the overriding principle is one of inclusion of all sorts of people. I see Romans 8.28 as a key verse.

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Then discrimination due to gender would be similar to discrimination due to nationality or employment status.

My fellow believers, do not practice your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of partiality [toward people—show no favoritism, no prejudice, no snobbery]. --Amplified Version

[Ernie]

I think a New Testament case can be made for patriarchy, complementarianism, or egalitarianism, in the home or in the church, depending on which verses are emphasized. Rather than take a position, I prefer letting each concept have expression in its proper situation, as long as it does not violate the teachings of other NT scriptures for that situation. I lean towards complementarianism as a functional reality without embracing it as a theological reality.

Likewise, I think a NT case can be made for women being completely silent in the gathered assembly (except for singing), praying or speaking in the gathered assembly as long as it is not teaching, or praying and prophesying in the gathered assembly depending on which verses are emphasized. Again, without better clarity in the NT, I think God can bless honest efforts to follow all the teachings in the NT regarding women speaking in the church. If a person picks and chooses the verses that suit his worldview, and let those verses outrank all the other verses, I don't consider this an honest or honorable way of approaching the New Testament.

[JohnH]

It's interesting that this thread started out about the specific topic of ordaining women to senior leadership positions, but somehow has mostly been about women speaking at all in church.

I think the original question is still an important one, as it is a major difference between conservative/plain Anabaptism and much of the rest of christendom.

[MattY]

Wife: I found it kind of odd when my daughter started occasionally having morning devotions for her class. Upper grade doesn’t do that, and I assumed none of them did that for the girls, although it is useful for them to know how to do it if they become a school teacher, etc.. Besides, the non-Christian children have to do devotions as well once they get into the older classes.

May or may not be helpful, but in my view, school isn't church. We don't do communions, baptisms, weddings, or funerals. So women voicing inspirational thoughts, prophetic words from scripture, etc...seems appropriate to me and pretty much noncontroversial outside of a church context?

I also read books written by women. This includes Anabaptist women, such as Anything but Simple, written by Lucinda J. Miller. Also it includes women I might disagree with in various areas, such as women's ordination. I've read a couple books written by Tish Harrison Warren, an Anglican priest, for instance. I agree with the way I saw Tim Challies put it: God has reserved some roles for men (husband, presbyter, preacher). But He gives gifts to men and women alike. This includes gifts - and abilities - like skill in writing, skill in exegesis, and spiritual wisdom.

[JohnL]

God has reserved some roles for men (husband, presbyter, preacher). But He gives gifts to men and women alike. This includes gifts - and abilities - like skill in writing, skill in exegesis, and spiritual wisdom.

This is pretty much how we see it. We only ordain men to be pastor and preacher. But we have both men and women teaching in Sunday School or leading small group Bible studies.

[JohnH]

I also read books written by women. This includes Anabaptist women, such as Anything but Simple, written by Lucinda J. Miller.

I find it interesting that people continue to refer to Mrs. Kinsinger by her maiden name, although given that she general promotes feminist/progressive viewpoints, perhaps it is appropriate.

[ohio jones]

I also read books written by women. This includes Anabaptist women, such as Anything but Simple, written by Lucinda J. Miller.

I find it interesting that people continue to refer to Mrs. Kinsinger by her maiden name, although given that she general promotes feminist/progressive viewpoints, perhaps it is appropriate.

What name is on the cover of the book? What was her name when she wrote it? Why would you assume that people know her married name, or even that she is now married?

Do you find it interesting that people continue to refer to Mark Twain, even though his real name has been known for over a century? Actually, Clemens adopted the name from riverboat captain Isaiah Sellers, who after his death in 1863 was no longer using it. Before 1863, Clemens often signed his writing "Josh."