Szdfan wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2026 8:34 am
That’s not the rubric I raised. I’m asking whether the US and Israel are meeting the Just War standards being claimed for them.
Like most conservative Anabaptists, I don’t care about “just war” theory or any of the other questionable ideas Augustine came up with.
Okay. I’m not the one who called the Iran war a “just war.” I’m just interrogating Valerie’s claim.
I’m not really a proponent for Just War Theory as a justification for war. I am a proponent for anything that puts limits on the brutality of war. I am for norms and international law, not because I think they’re perfect or that they make war more palatable or permissible, it’s because I think the absence of these restraints.
This is why I find this rhetoric from Pete Hegseth concerning:
Our response? We will keep pressing. We will keep pushing, keep advancing, no quarter, no mercy for our enemies.
“Quarter” refers to the requirement that militaries accept the surrender of enemy soldiers. “No quarter” means killing surrendering soldiers instead of taking them prisoner. I don’t see how that’s better.
War is already brutal. I think we should restrain that brutality as much as possible. I don’t see how throwing off all restraint and allowing war be as brutal as possible is a more moral position.
0 x
"Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless."
Szdfan wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2026 2:21 am
Some of us do in fact have been following the story, but just don’t agree with Valerie’s interpretation of it. At this point, not only are Iranians having to deal with a brutal, authoritarian regime, they also have to deal with widespread missile attacks from Israel and the US. Are the deaths of civilians by the US more morally justifiable than by Iran?
In this thread, Valerie invoked Just War Theory. Augustine cared about civilian casualties, arguing for proportionate action and the protection of the innocents. Is the US doing this, or are they being sloppy, such as the missile strike against the girls’ school?
One thing that bothers me about Trump’s call for Iranians to rise up and overthrow the government is that while it sounds noble, it’s a death sentence. Is there an opposition in Iran organized enough and large enough to actually overthrow the government? What would happen to civilians if they did rise up? Does Trump have any actual idea of what’s going on in Iranian society?
Would you apply the same rubric to Ukrainians who find themselves occupied by Russia?
That’s not the rubric I raised. I’m asking whether the US and Israel are meeting the Just War standards being claimed for them.
Augustine is not here today presented with the same worldwide threats that countries face today.
To “me” Just War means there’s justification for war. Jesus said we would always have wars- it’s just a favor this side of when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven.
If you can, you can watch the Senate Intel Hearing on Iran.
Probably easy to find, it’s live right now-
Helps gain understanding (as complicated as it all is).
The hearing is not limited to the war on Iran.
Our response? We will keep pressing. We will keep pushing, keep advancing, no quarter, no mercy for our enemies.
“Quarter” refers to the requirement that militaries accept the surrender of enemy soldiers. “No quarter” means killing surrendering soldiers instead of taking them prisoner. I don’t see how that’s better.
War is already brutal. I think we should restrain that brutality as much as possible. I don’t see how throwing off all restraint and allowing war be as brutal as possible is a more moral position.
He may be appropriating language from his mentor Doug Wilson here, but applying it in a way that Wilson didn't intend (but probably agrees with).
Valerie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2026 11:31 am
Augustine is not here today presented with the same worldwide threats that countries face today.
It's just a small step from this to saying that Jesus didn't face the current evils, so we must do things differently from what he taught.
To “me” Just War means there’s justification for war. Jesus said we would always have wars- it’s just a favor this side of when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven.
If you use Just War with a different meaning than its historic context, prepare to be misunderstood. Justifications can easily be produced, even if fictitious like Iraq's WMD.
I don't think Jesus said exactly this, nor do I think wars are a favor to anyone except weapons manufacturers and a few others who enrich themselves at great expense to others.
Valerie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2026 11:31 am
Augustine is not here today presented with the same worldwide threats that countries face today.
It's just a small step from this to saying that Jesus didn't face the current evils, so we must do things differently from what he taught.
To “me” Just War means there’s justification for war. Jesus said we would always have wars- it’s just a favor this side of when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven.
If you use Just War with a different meaning than its historic context, prepare to be misunderstood. Justifications can easily be produced, even if fictitious like Iraq's WMD.
I don't think Jesus said exactly this, nor do I think wars are a favor to anyone except weapons manufacturers and a few others who enrich themselves at great expense to others.
I do believe if America lacked a military we’d not be a free country.
Valerie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2026 11:31 am
Augustine is not here today presented with the same worldwide threats that countries face today.
It's just a small step from this to saying that Jesus didn't face the current evils, so we must do things differently from what he taught.
To “me” Just War means there’s justification for war. Jesus said we would always have wars- it’s just a favor this side of when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven.
If you use Just War with a different meaning than its historic context, prepare to be misunderstood. Justifications can easily be produced, even if fictitious like Iraq's WMD.
And if someone says the following, it just adds to the misunderstanding if you don’t actually mean “Just War Theory.”
Valerie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2026 5:20 pm
I suppose I agree with just war (Saint Augustine) in a case like the situation in Iran.
0 x
"Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless."
Valerie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2026 11:31 am
Augustine is not here today presented with the same worldwide threats that countries face today.
It's just a small step from this to saying that Jesus didn't face the current evils, so we must do things differently from what he taught.
To “me” Just War means there’s justification for war. Jesus said we would always have wars- it’s just a favor this side of when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven.
If you use Just War with a different meaning than its historic context, prepare to be misunderstood. Justifications can easily be produced, even if fictitious like Iraq's WMD.
And if someone says the following, it just adds to the misunderstanding if you don’t actually mean “Just War Theory.”
Valerie wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2026 5:20 pm
I suppose I agree with just war (Saint Augustine) in a case like the situation in Iran.
Augustine countered phrase. Just means “Justification” Probably one reason most denominations don’t refuse to let Christians serve in the military & I have read statements indicating there were those who served that were in the first 300 years of Christianity.
I don’t know what your ideas are on the how to address the war on terrorism which was declared in 2001 when 9/11 happened & Muslims in the Middle East were shown celebrating. Perhaps we shouldn’t care.
Valerie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2026 11:31 am
Augustine is not here today presented with the same worldwide threats that countries face today.
It's just a small step from this to saying that Jesus didn't face the current evils, so we must do things differently from what he taught.
To “me” Just War means there’s justification for war. Jesus said we would always have wars- it’s just a favor this side of when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven.
If you use Just War with a different meaning than its historic context, prepare to be misunderstood. Justifications can easily be produced, even if fictitious like Iraq's WMD.
I don't think Jesus said exactly this, nor do I think wars are a favor to anyone except weapons manufacturers and a few others who enrich themselves at great expense to others.
I do believe if America lacked a military we’d not be a free country.
Valerie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2026 1:59 pm
Augustine countered phrase. Just means “Justification” Probably one reason most denominations don’t refuse to let Christians serve in the military & I have read statements indicating there were those who served that were in the first 300 years of Christianity.
I don’t know what your ideas are on the how to address the war on terrorism which was declared in 2001 when 9/11 happened & Muslims in the Middle East were shown celebrating. Perhaps we shouldn’t care.
While I don’t agree with Islam, the vast majority didn’t even know it happened. To them, America was allies against Russia and we were the latest in the long line of nations attempting to pacify them and some of them spoke Greek for example from when Alexander invaded.
The passports recovered were mostly from Saudi Arabia yet we invaded two separate countries with nothing overly to show for it other than giving Arabs reasons to hate America.
Do you know where that celebration that was filmed even was?
Valerie wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2026 1:59 pm
Augustine countered phrase. Just means “Justification” Probably one reason most denominations don’t refuse to let Christians serve in the military & I have read statements indicating there were those who served that were in the first 300 years of Christianity.
I don’t know what your ideas are on the how to address the war on terrorism which was declared in 2001 when 9/11 happened & Muslims in the Middle East were shown celebrating. Perhaps we shouldn’t care.
While I don’t agree with Islam, the vast majority didn’t even know it happened. To them, America was allies against Russia and we were the latest in the long line of nations attempting to pacify them and some of them spoke Greek for example from when Alexander invaded.
The passports recovered were mostly from Saudi Arabia yet we invaded two separate countries with nothing overly to show for it other than giving Arabs reasons to hate America.
Do you know where that celebration that was filmed even was?
It didn’t take very many to kill over 3,000 in one day though. A handful of radicals is all it took.
