Venezuela 2025

[R7ehr]

The “intention” of Drug cartels and drug Lords is to harm people. For money. Not the same thing. I was simply answering Boots referring to them the way he was. Democrats seem to always defend the bad guys. You all are perfectly free to try to convert them. How would you go about that?

Did Jesus come for the righteous or call the sinners to repentance? They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Mark 2:17
Would you like the focus to be on converting the good people? There is none good, no not one.

I guess this does sort of remind me of the theology of “the ancient churches”. Just kill everyone who is “bad”. Use the tip of the spear. Send in the Templar Knights, it crusade time. Their family can just pray the dead out of purgatory later.

Should we shoot thieves? How about if they escape, should they be hunted down and shot on the spot? What about other crimes? Just shoot everyone? Maybe we just dispense with the whole justice system entirely. White collar crime, shoot em. Just shoot everyone.

[JohnH]

So ... as long as they say they have evidence of a crime, that's good enough? No need to make any of that public, just go ahead and kill them?

What if you were the accused?

If the government decided I were a terrorist, etc there would be absolutely nothing I could do about it. I do not imagine for one second that I would have any leverage over a very powerful government. It has been this way since the FISA courts were established and lots of laws passed allowing "fighting terrorism". You can be monitored, wiretapped, etc with a secret warrant from a secret court and no way to even know it's happening.

However, I do try to avoid doing things that are very shady with shady people, which is why I stay away from things like drugs or people who want to sell / move drugs and other kinds of trafficking. But ultimately, we have an ultra-powerful government with a lot of power. Accountability? Yes, there is, to the voters, and they have elected the Congresses that have passed these laws.

Ultimately, Congress and the laws they pass aren't the ones you (or I) would prefer to live under.

[Jazman]

The “intention” of Drug cartels and drug Lords is to harm people. For money. Not the same thing. I was simply answering Boots referring to them the way he was. Democrats seem to always defend the bad guys. You all are perfectly free to try to convert them. How would you go about that?

Did Jesus come for the righteous or call the sinners to repentance? They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Mark 2:17
Would you like the focus to be on converting the good people? There is none good, no not one.

I guess this does sort of remind me of the theology of “the ancient churches”. Just kill everyone who is “bad”. Use the tip of the spear. Send in the Templar Knights, it crusade time. Their family can just pray the dead out of purgatory later.

Should we shoot thieves? How about if they escape, should they be hunted down and shot on the spot? What about other crimes? Just shoot everyone? Maybe we just dispense with the whole justice system entirely. White collar crime, shoot em. Just shoot everyone.

Well, in my lifetime there has been a growing pattern of some justifying/excusing/defending extra-judicial killings... I've seen it here (mennodiscuss/mennonet), I've seen it among my church friends and family, I've seen it in certain media and from certain online influencers... many have forgotten the lessons of history or what the rise of extra-judicial/no due process killings means... (what it says about a culture that favors that).

[Valerie]

The “intention” of Drug cartels and drug Lords is to harm people. For money. Not the same thing. I was simply answering Boots referring to them the way he was. Democrats seem to always defend the bad guys. You all are perfectly free to try to convert them. How would you go about that?

Did Jesus come for the righteous or call the sinners to repentance? They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Mark 2:17
Would you like the focus to be on converting the good people? There is none good, no not one.

I guess this does sort of remind me of the theology of “the ancient churches”. Just kill everyone who is “bad”. Use the tip of the spear. Send in the Templar Knights, it crusade time. Their family can just pray the dead out of purgatory later.

Should we shoot thieves? How about if they escape, should they be hunted down and shot on the spot? What about other crimes? Just shoot everyone? Maybe we just dispense with the whole justice system entirely. White collar crime, shoot em. Just shoot everyone.

Well, in my lifetime there has been a growing pattern of some justifying/excusing/defending extra-judicial killings... I've seen it here (mennodiscuss/mennonet), I've seen it among my church friends and family, I've seen it in certain media and from certain online influencers... many have forgotten the lessons of history or what the rise of extra-judicial/no due process killings means... (what it says about a culture that favors that).

In my lifetime, I did ministries where hurting people are either by drugs they were addicted to themselves, or members of families who have been severely devastated by the effects of drugs

In my lifetime, I saw the drug culture rise to a horrible level. I have seen the government do very little about it. In my lifetime, I have seen activist judges, who let too many go free that they should not have. We are seeing this among so many lately That are being exposed for being let go from violent crimes over and over again and so many hurt by these types of judges. I could give you a personal example of dealing with this myself in California however, I’m going to abstain from sharing that personal story, but I’ve encountered it with my own eyes and experience.

They’re always has a lot of talk about doing something about the drug situation at our country, but nothing seems to get accomplished. And we have a president who realizes there are many judges who let guilty people go free.

[Valerie]

The “intention” of Drug cartels and drug Lords is to harm people. For money. Not the same thing. I was simply answering Boots referring to them the way he was. Democrats seem to always defend the bad guys. You all are perfectly free to try to convert them. How would you go about that?

Did Jesus come for the righteous or call the sinners to repentance? They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Mark 2:17
Would you like the focus to be on converting the good people? There is none good, no not one.

I guess this does sort of remind me of the theology of “the ancient churches”. Just kill everyone who is “bad”. Use the tip of the spear. Send in the Templar Knights, it crusade time. Their family can just pray the dead out of purgatory later.

Should we shoot thieves? How about if they escape, should they be hunted down and shot on the spot? What about other crimes? Just shoot everyone? Maybe we just dispense with the whole justice system entirely. White collar crime, shoot em. Just shoot everyone.

Of course, Jesus called the sinners to repent. Is that what you see happening? Are you all out there in your little boats trying to reach these people that are coming to other places to destroy the soul of man with drugs?

How do you view this? It IS New Testament after all:

Romans 13:
13 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

[Grace]

The “intention” of Drug cartels and drug Lords is to harm people. For money. Not the same thing. I was simply answering Boots referring to them the way he was. Democrats seem to always defend the bad guys. You all are perfectly free to try to convert them. How would you go about that?

Did Jesus come for the righteous or call the sinners to repentance? They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Mark 2:17
Would you like the focus to be on converting the good people? There is none good, no not one.

I guess this does sort of remind me of the theology of “the ancient churches”. Just kill everyone who is “bad”. Use the tip of the spear. Send in the Templar Knights, it crusade time. Their family can just pray the dead out of purgatory later.

Should we shoot thieves? How about if they escape, should they be hunted down and shot on the spot? What about other crimes? Just shoot everyone? Maybe we just dispense with the whole justice system entirely. White collar crime, shoot em. Just shoot everyone.

Being part of a Christian faith that is non-resistant, no we should not shoot thieves. Our founding fathers wisely set up a government that has a separation of church and state. It is not the church's responsibility to take the matters of lawbreakers, murderers, thieves, etc. Into their hands. Romans 13:1-7 clearly states that governing authorities are set up to punish wrongdoers and uphold justice, to be "avengers to execute wrath on him who practices evil," bearing the sword to enforce punishment. And no, the government should not just shoot anyone. And not that I justify this, but that is what governments have been doing for centuries. Especially during wars.

I am confused why people defend drug traffickers.

[Soloist]

Let’s change the narrative for a moment…

I am confused why terrorists are being defended.

Answer:
In Cuba, we have people that we picked up under terrorist and charges that were mistakes and they were tortured. They were imprisoned for years, and some of them were never able to actually even leave Cuba ever.

Let’s just theorize that if we can make mistakes and torture people and condemn them to prison for indefinite detention, that maybe we can make mistakes and kill people who are not actually drug smugglers.
There’s a reason that there are laws from a so-called Christian nation designed to give a right to a fair trial.
If you take away the rights of people accused of crime then you don’t have any rights in this country to begin with.
All the government has to do is accuse you of a crime and then you don’t have a fair trial. You don’t have any way to contest what you are accused of, this is what is the concern.
So it’s two fold, not only is it unethical and immoral to kill people without actually charging them with a crime because that is the point of having a government, and that is in the realm of a government authority…
Do unto others as you would have them do to you. If our government would be upset at another nation doing this to our citizens, then it is only reasonable for the same to be true in reverse, so really this comes down to the fact that the US is too big to be bullied. And calling the United States a Christian nation when they actively kill people without trial, without proof other than the so-called secret proof which led us looking for weapons of mass destruction that didn’t even exist…

If this is the nation, you want to be part of then it’s only logical to remove legal defense from any criminal. We should literally just have a decision made by a secret party such as a judge that no one ever meets no reason to have a chance to defend yourself because you’re guilty. The evidence is irrefutable if you never even see it.
That is the country you’re defending. That is the strategy that’s being used so if you find me being extreme or taking a position, you find to be silly remember this when it eventually happens to people not guilty. whether or not these people are guilty, they should be given a fair of trial.

This really has nothing to do with Christianity, but you could certainly twist this into a view of Christianity such as a woman comes to the bishop and says this man assaulted me and the bishop without investigating or talking to the person accused simply decides he’s guilty.
Without any chance of appeal or a chance to share his side, he is excommunicated until he repents of his sinful behavior.
That certainly wouldn’t be this sort of church I would want, and the only one who has this capability to be just is God. God doesn’t need us to argue in our defense because He already knows everything.

[JohnH]

I don't think Venezuela is what we would be doing if our top priority was to fight drugs in the United States. And if evidence were on the side of the Administration, I think they would want to capture prisoners and hold trials and capture the boats and show the evidence, not kill everyone and sink everything to the bottom of the sea.

Boot, we’ve been doing that for a long time, yet the drug problem is worse than ever. Could you concede that holding trials often doesn’t actually fix anything?

What would be something that would actually work? Here are some things that simply don’t work:

- capturing prisoners and holding trials and showing evidence
- spending billions of dollars on social services
- trying to address “root causes” like anti-poverty programs

A lot of people (myself included) are simply tired of seeing the country flooded with very harmful drugs. At this point, I don’t see why fentanyl isn’t considered a chemical weapon, and anyone trying to illegally import it is essentially conducting an attack no different than another chemical weapon.

At some point, the proper thing to do with boats full of toxic chemicals headed for the U.S. is to prevent them from arriving at all and destroy the chemicals.

[Bootstrap]

A lot of people (myself included) are simply tired of seeing the country flooded with very harmful drugs. At this point, I don’t see why fentanyl isn’t considered a chemical weapon, and anyone trying to illegally import it is essentially conducting an attack no different than another chemical weapon.

At some point, the proper thing to do with boats full of toxic chemicals headed for the U.S. is to prevent them from arriving at all and destroy the chemicals.

Is there any evidence at ALL that Venezuela is a major source of fentanyl or a major route for fentanyl into the United States? Is there any evidence at all that even one of those boats was carrying fentanyl?

As far as I know, there is no publicly available, credible evidence of either.

What would be something that would actually work? Here are some things that simply don’t work:

- capturing prisoners and holding trials and showing evidence
- spending billions of dollars on social services
- trying to address “root causes” like anti-poverty programs

You can’t actually disrupt drug trafficking by blowing up random fishing boats. If the goal is to reach drug lords or major trafficking networks, you need investigations, intelligence work, and evidence-driven operations — the same tools that have taken down every major cartel figure in history.

I think every item in your “doesn’t work” list is exactly an important part of what has worked in the real world. I will start another thread for that, because I think it's important.

Capturing people and presenting evidence - that's how law enforcement dismantles organized crime. Pablo Escobar, “El Chapo,” major fentanyl synth labs in Mexico, Chinese precursor suppliers ... they were all brought down through investigations, indictments, and prosecutions.

I’ll start another thread about what has historically worked, because I think that deserves its own discussion.

But I will say this much here: Pardoning major figures in drug trafficking and money laundering is not how you fight drug trafficking. It’s how you enable it.

[JohnH]

I wasn’t asking you to enumerate what doesn’t work; I’m asking why you think does work.

Trials, investigations, etc clearly are not working. We already have lots of those in both America and Mexico and other countries. Yet the drug problem is worse than ever.

So, instead of just complaining over and over that everything Trump does is bad… what would actually fix the problem?