Bunny Trails

[Bootstrap]

And yet he explained what he was challenging and you agreed with him. Yet here you seem to be assuming that he was politically offended and was pushing some kind of political neutrality test. So who exactly is making this about politics?

Currently, you.

Your questions keep turning away from Christian discussion of our loyalties. They turn it into some kind of fight. Along clearly political lines. So could you please stop? I would like the thread to be able to discuss what the thread is actually about.

Sometimes I get the impression that you think you are the only person authorized to point out political bias on this forum. You act like you have the right to criticize JohnH for mentioning political bias, but as soon as anyone points out your own political comments you accuse them of creating a distraction. And now, when someone points out your hypocrisy, you accuse them of the same thing. It's classic gaslighting, and I wish you would stop it.

With respect, I think we may be talking past each other. I’m not bringing up Democrats vs. Republicans; what I’m trying to say is that our faith should judge politics, not the other way around. I don't remember accusing anyone of "political bias", that sounds like something other people say or imply. There really is a biblical worldview and a Kingdom of God. Neither lines up fully with any party, and we don’t need to pass a political purity test to say that.

A helpful test I try to use for myself is this: if my attention keeps going back to political parties and polarization—if it keeps going back to “the fight”—then what am I really bearing witness to? My hope is to turn away from that and keep our focus on Christ and his Kingdom.

When people say I’m being hypocritical, I notice they are usually steering the discussion back to partisan lines and “the fight.” It also derails whatever the subject is. I don’t think that helps any of us. If we want to avoid hypocrisy, perhaps we can all agree to steer away from framing things in party terms and keep asking what the Kingdom perspective is.

And if I’m not modeling that well, I’d welcome others joining in and helping steer our conversations back toward the Kingdom. What would help us do that better in the thread this originated in?

[Soloist]

With respect, I think we may be talking past each other. I’m not bringing up Democrats vs. Republicans; what I’m trying to say is that our faith should judge politics, not the other way around. I don't remember accusing anyone of "political bias", that sounds like something other people say or imply. There really is a biblical worldview and a Kingdom of God. Neither lines up fully with any party, and we don’t need to pass a political purity test to say that.

You called John out on it specifically but you ignored the several other mentions of political leaning. John questioned other posters subtly suggesting real Christians wouldn’t or couldn’t support Trump. That’s when you challenged him.

I think that your behavior comes accidentally as partisan when you claim

Faithful Christianity keeps Jesus at the center, above every political figure, every party, and every faction

Equally call it out, leave the politics out of your post. That would go a long way to not looking like you have a bias and a side.

[temporal1]

And if I’m not modeling that well, I’d welcome others joining in and helping steer our conversations back toward the Kingdom. What would help us do that better in the thread this originated in?

When beginning in the first person, stick with it.

[ken_sylvania]

Currently, you.

Your questions keep turning away from Christian discussion of our loyalties. They turn it into some kind of fight. Along clearly political lines. So could you please stop? I would like the thread to be able to discuss what the thread is actually about.

Sometimes I get the impression that you think you are the only person authorized to point out political bias on this forum. You act like you have the right to criticize JohnH for mentioning political bias, but as soon as anyone points out your own political comments you accuse them of creating a distraction. And now, when someone points out your hypocrisy, you accuse them of the same thing. It's classic gaslighting, and I wish you would stop it.

With respect, I think we may be talking past each other. I’m not bringing up Democrats vs. Republicans; what I’m trying to say is that our faith should judge politics, not the other way around. I don't remember accusing anyone of "political bias", that sounds like something other people say or imply. There really is a biblical worldview and a Kingdom of God. Neither lines up fully with any party, and we don’t need to pass a political purity test to say that.

A helpful test I try to use for myself is this: if my attention keeps going back to political parties and polarization—if it keeps going back to “the fight”—then what am I really bearing witness to? My hope is to turn away from that and keep our focus on Christ and his Kingdom.

When people say I’m being hypocritical, I notice they are usually steering the discussion back to partisan lines and “the fight.” It also derails whatever the subject is. I don’t think that helps any of us. If we want to avoid hypocrisy, perhaps we can all agree to steer away from framing things in party terms and keep asking what the Kingdom perspective is.

And if I’m not modeling that well, I’d welcome others joining in and helping steer our conversations back toward the Kingdom. What would help us do that better in the thread this originated in?

Yup, classic gaslighting. Blame everybody else for steering the discussion back to partisan lines and "the fight", never mind who turned the conversation aggressive in the first place. It's "other people's" fault for pointing out the obvious, it's "other people's" fault for persecuting the righteous Bootstrap.

Never mind that I never said you accused someone of "political bias." I suppose it makes a person feel good to defend himself against a charge that was never leveled against them.

Let's just all agree that what we just saw happen didn't actually happen - it was just our lying eyes deceiving us.

Who are we gonna believe - you, or our lying eyes?

[Bootstrap]

Yup, classic gaslighting.

We agree on that much.

Blame everybody else for steering the discussion back to partisan lines and "the fight", never mind who turned the conversation aggressive in the first lace. It's "other people's" fault for pointing out the obvious, it's "other people's" fault for persecuting the righteous Bootstrap.

Um, no. That's gaslighting. I'm not trying to fix blame, I'm trying to discuss the actual topic. That's why I steered this to Bunny Trails. I don't talk about persecution or my own righteousness, I ask for space too actually discuss the topic.

I don't see any value in partisan lines or "the fight". And the best way to get away from that is to let it go.

Never mind that I never said you accused someone of "political bias." I suppose it makes a person feel good to defend himself against a charge that was never leveled against them

Why should I be "defending myself against a charge"? Am I on trial here or something? That's the problem with these blame conversations.

1. They aren't accurate. Everyone feels gaslighted.
2. They take infinite energy, but have no value.
3. They make it impossible to discuss the actual subject. They make the cost of trying to discuss a subject huge.
4. They almost never lead to reconciliation.

If you EVER see me derailing conversations from the subject to blame, ask us to frame something in partisan terms, or ask people to associate Christianity with some political cause, please feel free to bring that up in Bunny Trails. Those are the thing I am asking people to avoid in other threads. If I am violating my own standards, bringing it up here is fine.

But online trials? No thanks.

[Bootstrap]

Who are we gonna believe - you, or our lying eyes?

Well, let's look again at what I wrote:

With respect, I think we may be talking past each other. I’m not bringing up Democrats vs. Republicans; what I’m trying to say is that our faith should judge politics, not the other way around. I don't remember accusing anyone of "political bias", that sounds like something other people say or imply. There really is a biblical worldview and a Kingdom of God. Neither lines up fully with any party, and we don’t need to pass a political purity test to say that.

A helpful test I try to use for myself is this: if my attention keeps going back to political parties and polarization—if it keeps going back to “the fight”—then what am I really bearing witness to? My hope is to turn away from that and keep our focus on Christ and his Kingdom.

When people say I’m being hypocritical, I notice they are usually steering the discussion back to partisan lines and “the fight.” It also derails whatever the subject is. I don’t think that helps any of us. If we want to avoid hypocrisy, perhaps we can all agree to steer away from framing things in party terms and keep asking what the Kingdom perspective is.

And if I’m not modeling that well, I’d welcome others joining in and helping steer our conversations back toward the Kingdom. What would help us do that better in the thread this originated in?

In the other thread, I said that turning everything back to claims of political bias is a problem. It's one of several common impulses that politicize and polarize threads. It makes it hard to discuss the topic, it just invalidates the person and says they have no right to say something. You called me a hypocrite, but I really am trying to avoid doing that. To me, hypocrisy means violating my own standards.

Seriously, I think the best thing to do in most threads is to voice your own opinions on the topic of the thread itself. In the Charlie Kirk thread, politicized religion is the main topic, so it's hard to keep politics out of it completely, but we can let faith judge politics and avoid judging each oother so that there's room to discuss the topic.

[GaryK]

In the Charlie Kirk thread, politicized religion is the main topic, so it's hard to keep politics out of it completely, but we can let faith judge politics and avoid judging each other so that there's room to discuss the topic.

Where in the NT does it indicate that faith is supposed to judge politics? To me this premise is flawed.

[Bootstrap]

With respect, I think we may be talking past each other. I’m not bringing up Democrats vs. Republicans; what I’m trying to say is that our faith should judge politics, not the other way around. I don't remember accusing anyone of "political bias", that sounds like something other people say or imply. There really is a biblical worldview and a Kingdom of God. Neither lines up fully with any party, and we don’t need to pass a political purity test to say that.

You called John out on it specifically but you ignored the several other mentions of political leaning. John questioned other posters subtly suggesting real Christians wouldn’t or couldn’t support Trump. That’s when you challenged him.

Who was doing that, in what posts? I didn't think that was actually happening. And I certainly didn't see people suggesting real Christians would follow liberal politicians instead.

I think that your behavior comes accidentally as partisan when you claim

Faithful Christianity keeps Jesus at the center, above every political figure, every party, and every faction

Equally call it out, leave the politics out of your post. That would go a long way to not looking like you have a bias and a side.

What would I leave out in order to "leave the politics" out? Are you saying any mention of Trump or MAGA is politics? If so, how do we respond to what is going on in society around us from a Kingdom perspective?

[ken_sylvania]

Sometimes its obvious, a man died at our church (not attending) he ended up wrecking his car after stealing drugs from a drug dealer... Not much to imagine there.

He crashed his car into the church and died?

[JohnL]

If so, how do we respond to what is going on in society around us from a Kingdom perspective?

As others have mentioned to you the best way to respond is stop using WE or US (2nd person plural) and speak in the first person singular I and me. You're not a king or a pope so you can't use it that way. Your opinions are first person and yours alone so use first person singular pronouns.