Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[mike]

If this was a giant game of civilization, I would be pushing for peace only if I got something out of it, in Putin‘s position.

In Ukraine‘s position, I would be trying to get allies to declare war on Putin. I would be trying to make peace without trading territory.

The stuff isn’t rocket science.

And yet it takes the 'smartest,' most powerful people in the world countless hours and tremendous resources expended to come to an agreement. Because the positions of the various parties are incompatible.

The only positive thing about what's going on now is that at least the belligerents now SAY they want the killing to stop.

Edit: not the only positive thing. There are other positives, such as the fact that this conflict has not morphed into a wider war. Yet.

[joshuabgood]

I don't care for NATO either. You know...entangling alliances and all that stuff. There is no reason the USA needs to provide the national security for European polities, in my view.

And as was mentioned, the Polish Guarantee provides a compelling example of the dangers. Not to mention the way alliances literally facilitated in the Great War.

[temporal1]

If this was a giant game of civilization, I would be pushing for peace only if I got something out of it, in Putin‘s position.

In Ukraine‘s position, I would be trying to get allies to declare war on Putin. I would be trying to make peace without trading territory.

The stuff isn’t rocket science.

This is where i appreciate Trump’s approach. He’s not just about military strategy.

The way i understand his thinking is, when everyone has BOTH a stake in the “game” AND something tangible to gain, even those who otherwise do not like each other, will cooperate - and, MAY learn mutual respect.

imho, Trump’s greatest problem are the PROFITEERS looking to gain (BIG) from protracted war.
they’re slippery and above nothing. immoral and amoral.

as much as Trump (and all sane people want) profiteers will not be easily pushed away.

- - - - - - -

Reuters / No boots on the ground
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/tr ... 025-08-19/

The Hill / Trump offers assurance of no US boots on the ground in Ukraine
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/5459 ... s-ukraine/

[mike]

I don't care for NATO either. You know...entangling alliances and all that stuff. There is no reason the USA needs to provide the national security for European polities, in my view.

And as was mentioned, the Polish Guarantee provides a compelling example of the dangers. Not to mention the way alliances literally facilitated in the Great War.

I don't really have a strong opinion on NATO because it is not my kingdom. But, what is the difference between the entangling alliances of two nations, or of two states within a nation? Why does one entity of any sort 'need' to provide security for another? Usually it is a perceived need because of the desire for mutual support. These alliances are entangling, but you could make the argument that they are often empowering as well, functioning as a deterrent for conflict. Why did the Cold War never go hot? Maybe NATO was a factor.

[R7ehr]

The Cold War was only cold, depending on where you lived. Lived in the USA and USSR? Cold. Lived in many other places, it was plenty hot.
1940’s: Greek Civil War and Chinese Civil War
1950’s: Korea, Laos, Vietnam, Cuba
1960’s: Congo, Guatemala, Cambodia
1970’s: Angola, Ethiopia, Mozambique
1980’s: Nicaragua, El Salvador

This is just a partial list.

[temporal1]

If Ukraine wants a blank check for US protection then they have to become a US client state. That includes installing whatever leader the U.S. wants, as opppsed to one who back talks like a disobedient child.

i believe he’s laser-focused on getting carte blanche. and, i believe he’s been promised a lot, from before Russia crossed the boundary. there was no surprise by any of them. they were prepared and waiting.

Z’s insolent behavior in the White House in February, making a beeline to European leaders after, was telling.

thus, this recent meeting brought those leaders to Trump’s table, a next step.
Trump has shown, Europe’s free ride (since WWII) is over.

your analogy of children is valid. petulant, manipulative, clever children. they have everything but wisdom.

From the end of the above THE HILL report:

.. Trump has definitively ruled out NATO membership for Ukraine as part of any peace deal.

[mike]

The Cold War was only cold, depending on where you lived. Lived in the USA and USSR? Cold. Lived in many other places, it was plenty hot.
1940’s: Greek Civil War and Chinese Civil War
1950’s: Korea, Laos, Vietnam, Cuba
1960’s: Congo, Guatemala, Cambodia
1970’s: Angola, Ethiopia, Mozambique
1980’s: Nicaragua, El Salvador

This is just a partial list.

True. It might be more correct to say that the Cold War never turned into another world war.

[temporal1]

The Cold War was only cold, depending on where you lived. Lived in the USA and USSR? Cold. Lived in many other places, it was plenty hot.
1940’s: Greek Civil War and Chinese Civil War
1950’s: Korea, Laos, Vietnam, Cuba
1960’s: Congo, Guatemala, Cambodia
1970’s: Angola, Ethiopia, Mozambique
1980’s: Nicaragua, El Salvador

This is just a partial list.

As one born into The Cold War, attended public school for years in The Cold War, quickly followed by Vietnam ..
i appreciate Trump’s consistent stance to PREVENT killing. He uses simple words, “END KILLING on both sides”.

i’m happy for the U.S. CIC to talk like that.


yep. been there done that.

[Soloist]

If this was a giant game of civilization, I would be pushing for peace only if I got something out of it, in Putin‘s position.

In Ukraine‘s position, I would be trying to get allies to declare war on Putin. I would be trying to make peace without trading territory.

The stuff isn’t rocket science.

And yet it takes the 'smartest,' most powerful people in the world countless hours and tremendous resources expended to come to an agreement. Because the positions of the various parties are incompatible.

The only positive thing about what's going on now is that at least the belligerents now SAY they want the killing to stop.

Edit: not the only positive thing. There are other positives, such as the fact that this conflict has not morphed into a wider war. Yet.

If we... being the church still split and can't come to agreements, how much more will they struggle.

[JohnH]

Despite what you wrote, Ukraine isn't seeking any sort of blank check.

They are simply seeking the same mutual security guarantees that benefit all members of NATO.

I do not see why America needs to supply security guarantees to Ukraine particularly when we get nothing in return.