Think Biblically Podcast: Economics and the Fertility Gap

[mike]

After listening to the podcast, I agree with nearly everything. But I wouldn't say it was an exercise in thinking biblically, rather thinking logically and objectively. These are also good considerations but I think it needs to be considered through a biblical lense. Just creating birth is not enough for a healthy society.

I have a similar feeling with the quiver full, as many as possible teaching. I support having as many children as you can raise with hope and vision. In my worldview fertility is not an end in itself.

I would agree with all of that, and I suspect that so would the people on the podcast. What I would support in relation to a "quiver full" is just precisely what the Bible says - that a person who has many children is happy, and that it should be seen and promoted as a blessing to have children.

I wonder if falling fertility is a self correction device God has built in to human civilization so that societies who cannot reproduce hope and vision don't grow bigger. But that is probably a topic for another thread.

If that is true, then does falling fertility in the Mennonite churches represent a decline in hope and vision?

[barnhart]

I wonder if falling fertility is a self correction device God has built in to human civilization so that societies who cannot reproduce hope and vision don't grow bigger. But that is probably a topic for another thread.

If that is true, then does falling fertility in the Mennonite churches represent a decline in hope and vision?

Precisely.

[barnhart]

After listening to the podcast, I agree with nearly everything. But I wouldn't say it was an exercise in thinking biblically, rather thinking logically and objectively. These are also good considerations but I think it needs to be considered through a biblical lense. Just creating birth is not enough for a healthy society.

I have a similar feeling with the quiver full, as many as possible teaching. I support having as many children as you can raise with hope and vision. In my worldview fertility is not an end in itself.

I would agree with all of that, and I suspect that so would the people on the podcast. What I would support in relation to a "quiver full" is just precisely what the Bible says - that a person who has many children is happy, and that it should be seen and promoted as a blessing to have children.

Agreed. The problem lies in making the scriptures say more.

[ohio jones]

I wonder if falling fertility is a self correction device God has built in to human civilization so that societies who cannot reproduce hope and vision don't grow bigger. But that is probably a topic for another thread.

If that is true, then does falling fertility in the Mennonite churches represent a decline in hope and vision?

Which churches are we talking about? In my congregation of 150 members, we have had 7 births so far this year, and at least 4 more in the oven that I know of. This might actually be a decline from a year or two ago when we had a bumper crop, but on the whole it doesn't seem like a fertility problem.

[mike]

I wonder if falling fertility is a self correction device God has built in to human civilization so that societies who cannot reproduce hope and vision don't grow bigger. But that is probably a topic for another thread.

If that is true, then does falling fertility in the Mennonite churches represent a decline in hope and vision?

Which churches are we talking about? In my congregation of 150 members, we have had 7 births so far this year, and at least 4 more in the oven that I know of. This might actually be a decline from a year or two ago when we had a bumper crop, but on the whole it doesn't seem like a fertility problem.

The Mennonite population as a whole. I've seen it discussed elsewhere, but here's a 2006 study that says fertility dropped by 20% in the previous 30 years.

[JohnL]

Depopulation is real in rural areas. But when it happens, I don't see a lot of value in keeping the doors of churches open when there are not enough congregants to sustain it.

Slightly off topic rant: Rural depopulation is one reason I think the anti immigration movement is so misguided. When I travel cross country through the decaying towns of the rural South, I always think this was optional, they could have embraced immigration.

Well if an area can’t sustain a population it’s going to either shut down or turn into a crime ridden ghetto. What we’re seeing in the rural South isn’t depopulation at all. It’s move-ins from the cities and burbs. They’ll come and ooh and ahh the quiet then beg developers to put up their favorite stores. They build those gated communities too. Local folk get tired of being overrun by these move-ins who have no appreciation for either local culture or local manners.

[barnhart]

After listening to the podcast, I agree with nearly everything. But I wouldn't say it was an exercise in thinking biblically, rather thinking logically and objectively. These are also good considerations but I think it needs to be considered through a biblical lense. Just creating birth is not enough for a healthy society.

I have a similar feeling with the quiver full, as many as possible teaching. I support having as many children as you can raise with hope and vision. In my worldview fertility is not an end in itself.

I would agree with all of that, and I suspect that so would the people on the podcast. What I would support in relation to a "quiver full" is just precisely what the Bible says - that a person who has many children is happy, and that it should be seen and promoted as a blessing to have children.

I am still thinking about this. The books of wisdom in the Bible need wisdom to understand them, they can't be treated like magic writing and isolated from context. There are many people in this world with lots of children who are not happy. I know a homeless couple that have children in foster care, just recently my wife saw them on the street again and they have another infant. I don't imagine Elon Musk's 9 or 10 children by a string of mothers qualifies him as happy and blessed.

We live in a society which is anti-natalist in many ways but I don't think the way out is to simply encourage births. The answer is to address the deeper distortions in society that convince people the best path is toward increasing narcissism, isolation and existentialism. We were created for purpose and a future, without that truth society will certainly run off the rails.

[joshuabgood]

There is also the corollary that people who are single.with no children are more free to do the Lords work.

[mike]

There is also the corollary that people who are single.with no children are more free to do the Lords work.

Or married with no children by no choice of their own who have a similar freedom.

[mike]

After listening to the podcast, I agree with nearly everything. But I wouldn't say it was an exercise in thinking biblically, rather thinking logically and objectively. These are also good considerations but I think it needs to be considered through a biblical lense. Just creating birth is not enough for a healthy society.

I have a similar feeling with the quiver full, as many as possible teaching. I support having as many children as you can raise with hope and vision. In my worldview fertility is not an end in itself.

I would agree with all of that, and I suspect that so would the people on the podcast. What I would support in relation to a "quiver full" is just precisely what the Bible says - that a person who has many children is happy, and that it should be seen and promoted as a blessing to have children.

I am still thinking about this. The books of wisdom in the Bible need wisdom to understand them, they can't be treated like magic writing and isolated from context. There are many people in this world with lots of children who are not happy. I know a homeless couple that have children in foster care, just recently my wife saw them on the street again and they have another infant. I don't imagine Elon Musk's 9 or 10 children by a string of mothers qualifies him as happy and blessed.

We live in a society which is anti-natalist in many ways but I don't think the way out is to simply encourage births. The answer is to address the deeper distortions in society that convince people the best path is toward increasing narcissism, isolation and existentialism. We were created for purpose and a future, without that truth society will certainly run off the rails.

All the teachings of scripture are meant to be understood as parts of the whole, and for the Christian, they are all part of the pursuit of Christ and a broad understanding of the kingdom of God.

I see someone like Elon Musk as promoting having children based on simple economics and human flourishing but as being morally bankrupt in many other aspects of life. As Christians, we are most definitely not in that camp. For us, advocating for family and having children is only one part of a broader fabric of what it means to follow Jesus and build his kingdom.

No, we don't go about calling people to have more kids. We go about calling people to join the kingdom of God. Joyfully raising families if God gives us that privilege is only part of what this is.

Pointing out that some people with many children are not happy says nothing about the value of having children, just like the fact that some people go around in life not stealing from other people while not being happy says nothing about the value of not stealing from others. The beauty and value of having children is something that God created and that is a cause for happiness generally speaking, notwithstanding the fact that some families are dysfunctional.

The answer to dysfunctional families and a poor view of family is obviously not to teach people to have more kids. It is to point people to Jesus and his kingdom, and teach them all of what that means for life. Valuing family and children is one part of that - not the only thing and probably not the most important thing, but still a significant part. It is after all a fundamental aspect of what it means to be human, to be in God's image, and to fulfill the purpose of God as Creator.