Illegal alien arrivals now greater than American births?

[ken_sylvania]

That's part of the reason I don't think that "demographic shifts" is a very helpful term.

We all seem to agree on that.

And these examples certainly illustrate why it's simplistic and dismissive to just wave away people's concerns by saying it's nothing to be afraid of.

But as crime keeps going down, fear of crime keeps going up. See this thread:

viewtopic.php?p=269042#p269042

I do think government should take crime seriously. But I don't think immigration is causing new waves of crime in the US. The data is quite clear on that. I think politicians sometimes like to play on our fears and fan them into flames.

People's fears are not an accurate measure of reality - and they can turn quite ugly when directed toward other people. I think we can all agree that our feelings are not the measure of truth...

So is the approach to insist that people's fears are ungrounded, or is it to listen to people to truly understand why they feel the way they do?

[joshuabgood]

Immigration isn't connected with crime and substance abuse...current.protestations by current politicians aside.

People are created in the image of God and should be seen that way...not as groups of things to be feared.

We were all immigrants once. How about simply advocating for and implementing the golden rule and seeing people as Jesus sees them? Is that too much to shoot for as Christ followers?

[Ken]

That's part of the reason I don't think that "demographic shifts" is a very helpful term.

We all seem to agree on that.

And these examples certainly illustrate why it's simplistic and dismissive to just wave away people's concerns by saying it's nothing to be afraid of.

But as crime keeps going down, fear of crime keeps going up. See this thread:

viewtopic.php?p=269042#p269042

I do think government should take crime seriously. But I don't think immigration is causing new waves of crime in the US. The data is quite clear on that. I think politicians sometimes like to play on our fears and fan them into flames.

People's fears are not an accurate measure of reality - and they can turn quite ugly when directed toward other people. I think we can all agree that our feelings are not the measure of truth...

So is the approach to insist that people's fears are ungrounded, or is it to listen to people to truly understand why they feel the way they do?

Many fears are ungrounded.

And there are many fears we should have but don’t.

People are notoriously bad at risk assessment. It also doesn’t help when politicians and the media demagogue certain issues to death .

[Bootstrap]

But as crime keeps going down, fear of crime keeps going up. See this thread:

viewtopic.php?p=269042#p269042

I do think government should take crime seriously. But I don't think immigration is causing new waves of crime in the US. The data is quite clear on that. I think politicians sometimes like to play on our fears and fan them into flames.

People's fears are not an accurate measure of reality - and they can turn quite ugly when directed toward other people. I think we can all agree that our feelings are not the measure of truth...

So is the approach to insist that people's fears are ungrounded, or is it to listen to people to truly understand why they feel the way they do?

I think we can listen without accepting an alternate reality based on their fears. When our fears are out of touch with reality, that tells us something important.

Of course, their fears may be in line with the facts, but we need the facts to tell us if that is true. But sometimes our feelings tell us more about us than they tell us about reality.

Might be helpful to have a separate thread on feelings and how we respond to them in our spiritual journeys.

[Valerie]

That's part of the reason I don't think that "demographic shifts" is a very helpful term.

We all seem to agree on that.

And these examples certainly illustrate why it's simplistic and dismissive to just wave away people's concerns by saying it's nothing to be afraid of.

But as crime keeps going down, fear of crime keeps going up. See this thread:

viewtopic.php?p=269042#p269042

I do think government should take crime seriously. But I don't think immigration is causing new waves of crime in the US. The data is quite clear on that. I think politicians sometimes like to play on our fears and fan them into flames.

People's fears are not an accurate measure of reality - and they can turn quite ugly when directed toward other people. I think we can all agree that our feelings are not the measure of truth ... and that the world out there really wants to manipulate our feelings to gain our loyalty.

What do Kingdom of God peacemakers do in that kind of environment?

Fear tactics are far more used by the left when I listen to their politicians.

The reality is, immigration is welcomed in America. It is already a crime to enter illegally. So those who disregard the law to get here are more apt to disregard the law in other ways.

Following the laws of the land into any country is mandatory. We have to abide by other countries laws.

It gets old the implication that those who advocate for legal entry are against immigration is untru rhetoric.

Face facts- we have good reason to screen those who wish to enter. We face threats we never faced decades ago. I’m thankful for the wisdom that recognizes that and want to protect the people here while allowing for legal immigration.

[Bootstrap]

It gets old the implication that those who advocate for legal entry are against immigration is untrue rhetoric.

Face facts- we have good reason to screen those who wish to enter. We face threats we never faced decades ago. I’m thankful for the wisdom that recognizes that and want to protect the people here while allowing for legal immigration.

I think almost everyone in the debate believes:

1. We should screen people who want to enter.
2. We want legal entry.

To make that happen, we need to fund immigration courts. Because we don't, people who are accused of coming here illegally can't even get a trial in immigration court for 4-5 years. We shouldn't just disappear people without due process.

And we should stay out of the business of fear-mongering and hate-mongering. It's not a good look for the Kingdom of God.

[joshuabgood]

[ken_sylvania]

The people that I respect the most see the humanity in all demographics, including those on Kensington. Folks like Shane C have made their lives there loving and working with them, and he is now raising his son there.

I don't like violence, but I am not afraid of black or brown or white people.

If you have truly mastered your emotions to the point that you do not feel any fear at all when a group of loud, burly, white country boys gets in your face and starts yelling at you for some perceived insult, then I guess good for you. I'm not at that point.

I find your phrasing here to be somewhat interesting. You say you don't like violence - does that mean you simply find it distasteful, or is that a reluctant way of saying that you would actually experience some fear if you lived in a neighborhood where shootings were common and you knew you had a 1 in 20 chance per year of being robbed?

I'm not advocating for or against any particular immigration policy, but I think that if the goal is to encourage Christian attitudes toward immigrants of other cultures, your blanket dismissal of people's real experiences and emotions isn't helpful. To me, you seem dismissive and uncaring about the people who are actually negatively impacted by the changes that occur in neighborhoods. When you use phrases like "demographic shift" to describe a complete change in the character of a neighborhood, it feels like you are using clinical phrasing to avoid reckoning with the discomfort and fear that some people experience when their life changes dramatically and in ways they cannot understand.

If we dismiss people's discomfort and/or shame them by saying "there's nothing to be afraid of" and "you are just afraid of them because of their skin color" they will simply withdraw from us and we lose any kind of opportunity to help them work through the question of "How can I minister to these people?"

I have had the privilege of living, for a substantial period of time, in a different demographic. Over that period of time, I have come to realize that people are just people, irrespective of if they are children of "illegal immigrants" or children of citizens. That is my point. Some of my best friends during that period had been "illegal immigrants" for a long time. People that came to my house, that I worshiped with, that I made music with, were children of illegal immigrants.

My phrasing maybe isn't clear...but violence and substance abuse are not in fact demographic problems, they are human problems. Opioids and Meth are not more associated with illegal immigrants than they are good old Americans, in my experience. I grew up in rural Appalachia foothills. A few years back a shoot out in my neck of the woods killed several people. One of the local doctors murdered his wife. In East New York I was also proximate to violence. One of my students, Shaquille Jones, as shot dead on the street. My wife heard gunshots at the laundromat a week or two after we moved there. I could mention many other things as well...

My goal is to help people see the image of God in all. And to realize that people, of all demographics, are the best thing of God's creation. Demographics shift, they just do. I can understand grieving losses when family/friends move etc...however, I still hold that people don't need to be scared...as this thread heading seems to suggest as an issue...that being that immigrant births outnumber American births. I can guarantee you that many immigrants would feel such a lament is pejorative.

Honestly, I still don't understand how the word "shame" applies.

Yes, demographics will shift. The result is not generally neutral. Sometimes the character of a neighborhood becomes better, sometimes it becomes worse. While I haven't spent time in the exact same type of neighborhoods as you, I have interacted with a very wide range of people over the years. I have friends of various different ethnicities and cultural backgrounds. I agree with what you are saying - people are people regardless of their ethnicity.

However, demographic shift is not just about changes in the ethnic makeup of the population in an area. It's much broader, also including broad changes in the average age, gender distribution, and area of origin. Cultures are different; not all cultures are created equal. Some cultures are more accepting of opioid or heroin abuse. Some cultures foster a "macho man" mentality where men are expected to prove themselves, in part, through acts of bravado and/or violence. Some cultures are more accepting of the idea of driving around without insurance or drivers license, and just ditching the car and running if involved in an accident.

[Valerie]

It is to deter those who have committed the crime from breaking out- it’s not a laughing matter but neither is the worst crime. I guess reading through the Old Testament is a clear reminder that God called for severe consequences.

All our made in the image of God yes. Alcatraz is a prison which also was built with life threatening elements to face if one tries to escape. If one chooses to escape prison, as some do & take others lives which happens, they are risking their own life by breaking out. All this is to send messages so that people think twice before committing crimes.

[joshuabgood]

We'd like to see them in many states, - DJT