Illegal alien arrivals now greater than American births?

[Bootstrap]

Hating and fear mongering don't really help anything.

Which I haven't done. Are you concerned someone else in this thread promoted hate or fear mongering?

This is the kind of thing I think of as hate and fear mongering:

• Dehumanizing language
  Using words like infesting, vermin, disease, parasites, or cancer to describe people.
  Example: Nazi propaganda described Jews as "vermin" and "parasites" contaminating Germany.
• Existential threat framing
  Claiming that a group will destroy or erase the nation if not stopped.
  Example: "If we don't act now, our country will be gone in a generation."
• Hyperbolic population metaphors
  Depicting migration as an unstoppable flood or swarm.
  Example: "A tidal wave of foreigners is pouring across the border."
• Conspiracy narratives
  Asserting that hidden elites or secret cabals are engineering demographic changes.
  Example: "Globalist financiers are deliberately flooding the country with outsiders to weaken us."
• Moral contagion framing
  Portraying a group as corrupting society or draining resources like a disease.
  Example: "They are a cancer eating away at our communities."
• Apocalyptic urgency
  Claiming immediate drastic action is the only way to survive.
  Example: "This is our last chance to save the nation."
• Selective statistics with inflammatory framing
  Cherry-picking or distorting numbers to create panic.
  Example: Highlighting a single year's border arrests without context and calling it an "invasion."
• Calls for collective punishment or expulsion
  Demanding mass removal or denial of rights to entire groups.
  Example: "We need to round them all up and send them back, no exceptions."

Not a good look for the Kingdom of God.

I think it's interesting this decayed into a personal attack.

I think much of what you are posting is a personal attack against refugees, immigrants, and people who are not white. Coming from you, an immigrant who receives government benefits, I find the lack of compassion breathtaking.

[Bootstrap]

It doesn't tell us to tell the ruler to put his sword away. Rather, we're taught to put our own sword away, much as Jesus told the disciples to put their swords away when he was to be crucified. But I don't see where we're supposed to lobby the government to somehow become "pacifist".

Perhaps you could put your sword away on this particular issue?

This seems like an identity issue to you. Why?

[JohnH]

[*]Dehumanizing language
Using words like infesting, vermin, disease, parasites, or cancer to describe people.
Example: Nazi propaganda described Jews as "vermin" and "parasites" contaminating Germany.

Please search the thread history for "infesting". If you want to discuss it further please PM me.

[*]Existential threat framing
Claiming that a group will destroy or erase the nation if not stopped.
Example: "If we don't act now, our country will be gone in a generation."

Native Americans as they and their nations existed when European settlers arrived are gone for good. That's what happened, although it took longer than a generation.

Whether or not this is a bad thing or is just part of "demographic change" is a different topic, but none of the peoples who originally inhabited the lands where I live can be found now. Just a few place names and river names here and there.

[*]Hyperbolic population metaphors
Depicting migration as an unstoppable flood or swarm.
Example: "A tidal wave of foreigners is pouring across the border."

It is not hyperbolic to state that we have had millions of arrivals over the last 4 years. How would you describe it?

[*]Conspiracy narratives
Asserting that hidden elites or secret cabals are engineering demographic changes.
Example: "Globalist financiers are deliberately flooding the country with outsiders to weaken us."

It is entirely true that big business likes a steady supply of low-cost labor and supports anything that gets them this. In the current climate, they want migrants that are easier for them to take advantage of. I don't think it's a "conspiracy narrative" to point this out.

[*]Moral contagion framing
Portraying a group as corrupting society or draining resources like a disease.
Example: "They are a cancer eating away at our communities."

Did someone in this thread do this?

[*]Apocalyptic urgency
Claiming immediate drastic action is the only way to survive.
Example: "This is our last chance to save the nation."

Did someone in this thread do this?

[*]Selective statistics with inflammatory framing
Cherry-picking or distorting numbers to create panic.
Example: Highlighting a single year's border arrests without context and calling it an "invasion."

Maybe someone else in this thread did this? I have generally talked about the increase in arrivals and the overall illegal migrant population in the U.S. now (estimated to be 10 - 30 million depending on which source you use). That seems like a lot to me. I'm not trying to create any kind of "panic". This is a discussion forum where discussion happens.

If you like having 10 - 30 million illegal aliens in the country is OK, then it's OK for you have to have your opinion about that. JBG has put forth his opinion with a basis for it that provides an interesting discussion. I think it's OK to do that. I don't think it's OK, though, to characterize someone who disagrees with as being hateful or promoting hate.

[*]Calls for collective punishment or expulsion
Demanding mass removal or denial of rights to entire groups.
Example: "We need to round them all up and send them back, no exceptions."

I think it's fine to say that illegal aliens need to be removed from the country. I don't think a general state of lawlessness is a good thing. The amnesty in the 1980s under Reagan was passed with the understanding there wouldn't be a future problem of large amounts of illegal aliens present in the country, but that obviously didn't happen.

I don't see what's wrong with illegal aliens being removed to the countries they originally came from. And it's not "hateful" to think deportations are OK.

Deportations are not a collective punishment or a punishment at all.

I think much of what you are posting is a personal attack against refugees, immigrants, and people who are not white. Coming from you, an immigrant who receives government benefits, I find the lack of compassion breathtaking.

I find your accusation of racism against me to be a really low blow, and I'd like to give you a chance to withdraw it and apologize for it. I have never made anything of what I have said to be about race.

I have never said that immigrants shouldn't receive government benefits, either. (And virtually everyone in America who isn't ultra-wealthy receives some kind of benefit, such as a tax refund, Obamacare tax credits, or business owners & their employees who get various employment based tax credits).

[JohnH]

It doesn't tell us to tell the ruler to put his sword away. Rather, we're taught to put our own sword away, much as Jesus told the disciples to put their swords away when he was to be crucified. But I don't see where we're supposed to lobby the government to somehow become "pacifist".

Perhaps you could put your sword away on this particular issue?

It's an opinion. You have your opinion, and I have mine. Is it OK for each of us to have our opinions?

This seems like an identity issue to you. Why?

I've often felt like it's an identity issue from you as well - for whatever reason, it's very important to you to make sure you portray yourself as having certain opinions / beliefs about migration. That's fine if you want to do that. We're allowed to have different opinions.

[joshuabgood]

Romans is descriptive. In his providence, God can use government, just like he can use earthquakes, famines, and pestilences. God used Pharaoh. However, this is not him blessing them with some sort of "divine right."

Government is not the way of God. Jesus is the perfect revelation of God.

[Bootstrap]

It's an opinion. You have your opinion, and I have mine. Is it OK for each of us to have our opinions?

So ... we will not be judged according to our words? The tongue is not an issue for Christians as long as we have "opinions"? The works of the flesh are fine as long as they are "opinions"? I disagree.

James 3 seems relevant.

Here's an example:

In practical terms, it's far more likely Islamic militants would have been admitted as "refugees" and would end up threatening Christians in the U.S., too, which is exactly what has been going on with the Somali community in my region. The people who are the most violent and powerful often have the most connections and money and are able to make it over, and then continue to run their rackets and abuse their fellow countrymen who are powerless.

That's nonsense, you clearly know nothing at all about what a refugee is or how they are vetted. Or you are making this up despite knowing. And for some people, this is a matter of life and death. We have gotten to the point that it's almost impossible to discuss even Christians enduring persecution because it gets flooded with this kind of nonsense. And then you act like a victim when people treat you more kindly than you are treating people whose lives are at risk.

In Nigeria, FWIW, the vast majority of the refugees stay in Nigeria, moving to safer places. But as soon as you hear about people who might genuinely need compassion, you turn them into a threat and start campaigning against them.

What does the Bible tell us about Christian responses to refugees and foreigners in our land? Or do we set that aside if we have "opinions"? I believe that we will be judged for some of the opinions we promote on forums and in other places.

[JohnH]

It's an opinion. You have your opinion, and I have mine. Is it OK for each of us to have our opinions?

So ... we will not be judged according to our words? The tongue is not an issue for Christians as long as we have "opinions"? The works of the flesh are fine as long as they are "opinions"? I disagree.

I don't see anywhere in the Bible that we are required to have opinions that countries should have no immigration controls / open borders. I think it's OK to have an opinion that countries can have borders, immigration policies, and enforce them, just like they do other laws like speed limits.

I don't think it would be wrong to say something like "My town has been infested with people speeding" or "The roads near me are infested with street racers, breaking the law and endangering safety", although I avoid using the word "infested" at all to describe people at the present time.

I do see that you feel very strongly about this issue. It's OK to feel strongly about something you have a strongly held opinion on, but I think it's important to respect those who have differing opinions about it.

In practical terms, it's far more likely Islamic militants would have been admitted as "refugees" and would end up threatening Christians in the U.S., too, which is exactly what has been going on with the Somali community in my region. The people who are the most violent and powerful often have the most connections and money and are able to make it over, and then continue to run their rackets and abuse their fellow countrymen who are powerless.

That's nonsense, you clearly know nothing at all about what a refugee is or how they are vetted.

I am referring specifically to informal arrivals that aren't at designated ports of entry (such as happened by the millions over the past years), where such arrivals are coached by various NGOs to immediately claim they are seeking "asylum", and then go into a queue that is years-long. There was zero vetting and zero screening for such arrivals.

Now, that's not the case with most of the arrivals I mentioned from Somalia that are in my more local area, but there is certainly a serious problem with violence perpetrated by certain Somalis (I assume a very small fraction of them) against other Somalis, particularly in areas like shakedowns of small businesses / requiring payment of protection money, and violence perpetrated against Somalis (particularly women) who want to convert away from Islam, or who have converted away from Islam. A particular sub-population of Somalis is small in my state but it does exist (around 5,000), generally is not literate, and is looked down on by other Somalis and tends to be economically disadvantaged, and a number (more than 1, much less than 5,000) have converted to Christianity, who live in great fear of violence or even death from other Somalis who have been admitted into the country. If you PM me I would be happy to share a little more detail and tell you who you could talk to about this particular sub-group of people.

I don't think any "refugees" should be admitted or allowed to stay in the country who threaten other refugees (or anyone else) with violence or death. Do you?

Or you are making this up despite knowing. And for some people, this is a matter of life and death.

Yes, it is a matter of life and death. That's why I said what I did. I think it's good to admit refugees into the country who actually do need protection and aren't the source of violence themselves. I don't think it's good to admit people who end up perpetrating the exact same violence and death that the other refugees are fleeing from.

We have gotten to the point that it's almost impossible to discuss even Christians enduring persecution because it gets flooded with this kind of nonsense. And then you act like a victim when people treat you more kindly than you are treating people whose lives are at risk.

Who brought up U.S. refugee/immigration policy in the context of talking about things going on in Nigeria?

In Nigeria, FWIW, the vast majority of the refugees stay in Nigeria, moving to safer places. But as soon as you hear about people who might genuinely need compassion, you turn them into a threat and start campaigning against them.

No, I didn't. I said that the current broken asylum system makes America not a particularly safe place either.

What does the Bible tell us about Christian responses to refugees and foreigners in our land? Or do we set that aside if we have "opinions"? I believe that we will be judged for some of the opinions we promote on forums and in other places.

My position is that we shouldn't be admitting perpetrators of violence into the country. That's already happened and is now a major problem for virtually every migrant community in America, Canada, and other places that is composed of people who were fleeing violence. The people perpetrating it often find a way to sneak in as well.

For an academic look at what I am discussing, see
https://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/ltte0306/1.htm

[Bootstrap]

I don't see anywhere in the Bible that we are required to have opinions that countries should have no immigration controls / open borders. I think it's OK to have an opinion that countries can have borders, immigration policies, and enforce them, just like they do other laws like speed limits.

Why do you always turn it into a polarizing political issue?

I think the Bible tells us this - how should that affect the way we live and what we say online?

Scripture Warnings Against Oppression of Refugees and Foreigners

• Exodus 22:21 (ESV)
  “You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt.”
• Leviticus 19:33–34 (ESV)
  “When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself …”
• Deuteronomy 10:17–19 (ESV)
  “For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God… He executes justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the sojourner, giving him food and clothing. You shall also love the sojourner …”
• Deuteronomy 24:17–18 (ESV)
  “You shall not pervert the justice due to the sojourner or to the fatherless, or take a widow’s garment in pledge. But you shall remember that you were a slave in Egypt …”
• Jeremiah 22:3 (ESV)
  “Thus says the Lord: Do justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor him who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the resident alien, the fatherless, and the widow …”
• Zechariah 7:10 (ESV)
  “Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the sojourner or the poor. And let none of you devise evil against one another in your heart.”

[JohnH]

I don't see anywhere in the Bible that we are required to have opinions that countries should have no immigration controls / open borders. I think it's OK to have an opinion that countries can have borders, immigration policies, and enforce them, just like they do other laws like speed limits.

Why do you always turn it into a polarizing political issue?

I think the Bible tells us this - how should that affect the way we live and what we say online?

Scripture Warnings Against Oppression of Refugees and Foreigners

• Exodus 22:21 (ESV)
  “You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt.”
• Leviticus 19:33–34 (ESV)
  “When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself …”
• Deuteronomy 10:17–19 (ESV)
  “For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God… He executes justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the sojourner, giving him food and clothing. You shall also love the sojourner …”
• Deuteronomy 24:17–18 (ESV)
  “You shall not pervert the justice due to the sojourner or to the fatherless, or take a widow’s garment in pledge. But you shall remember that you were a slave in Egypt …”
• Jeremiah 22:3 (ESV)
  “Thus says the Lord: Do justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor him who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the resident alien, the fatherless, and the widow …”
• Zechariah 7:10 (ESV)
  “Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the sojourner or the poor. And let none of you devise evil against one another in your heart.”

Do you consider the Old Testament law binding on Christian believers?

When it comes to treatment of foreigners, I don't think the OT provides very good guidance to present-day believers, particularly since it commands in various places to:

- Not marry foreign women, and if you are married to a foreign woman, you need to separate from her to please God.

- Annihilate idol worshippers

- Attack specific countries or ethnic groups such as Amalekites

These were good and just commands that God gave his people in that time frame. However, God has decided that we don't need to do those things anymore, and has given us a new way to live and relate to others. I think we should look to the New Testament for guidance, which in particular teaches us not to really think in terms of who is a "foreigner" vs the in-group; we are no longer to strongly identify with our nation or people group/ethnic group, but rather to identify as children of God and part of the family of God.

That doesn't mean our host nations and the ethnic groups we are born into don't exist. But the way we are to relate to that is completely different than it was for God's people before Jesus came to earth.

[Ken]

I don't see anywhere in the Bible that we are required to have opinions that countries should have no immigration controls / open borders. I think it's OK to have an opinion that countries can have borders, immigration policies, and enforce them, just like they do other laws like speed limits.

Why do you always turn it into a polarizing political issue?

I think the Bible tells us this - how should that affect the way we live and what we say online?

Scripture Warnings Against Oppression of Refugees and Foreigners

• Exodus 22:21 (ESV)
  “You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt.”
• Leviticus 19:33–34 (ESV)
  “When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself …”
• Deuteronomy 10:17–19 (ESV)
  “For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God… He executes justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the sojourner, giving him food and clothing. You shall also love the sojourner …”
• Deuteronomy 24:17–18 (ESV)
  “You shall not pervert the justice due to the sojourner or to the fatherless, or take a widow’s garment in pledge. But you shall remember that you were a slave in Egypt …”
• Jeremiah 22:3 (ESV)
  “Thus says the Lord: Do justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor him who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the resident alien, the fatherless, and the widow …”
• Zechariah 7:10 (ESV)
  “Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the sojourner or the poor. And let none of you devise evil against one another in your heart.”

Do you consider the Old Testament law binding on Christian believers?

When it comes to treatment of foreigners, I don't think the OT provides very good guidance to present-day believers, particularly since it commands in various places to:

- Not marry foreign women, and if you are married to a foreign woman, you need to separate from her to please God.

- Annihilate idol worshippers

- Attack specific countries or ethnic groups such as Amalekites

These were good and just commands that God gave his people in that time frame. However, God has decided that we don't need to do those things anymore, and has given us a new way to live and relate to others. I think we should look to the New Testament for guidance, which in particular teaches us not to really think in terms of who is a "foreigner" vs the in-group; we are no longer to strongly identify with our nation or people group/ethnic group, but rather to identify as children of God and part of the family of God.

That doesn't mean our host nations and the ethnic groups we are born into don't exist. But the way we are to relate to that is completely different than it was for God's people before Jesus came to earth.

Oh please.

With both the Old and New Testaments you have to consider the context of the teaching and how to apply them to the modern world. For example, Matthew 5:42 commands: “ Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.‘. Well, about once a week I seem to get some request from a politician or political PAC of some sort requesting money. Is Jesus saying I should give to all of them because they ask? I sort of doubt it.

Likewise with respect to the Old Testament we can discern which commands are of the universal variety (like the 10 Commandments), and which really apply to certain circumstances of time and place related to a specific battle or conflict. And I would suggest that commands and teachings related to how we treat strangers among us is of the universal type of teaching. It fact, hospitality towards strangers is a principle deeply embedded in all the Abrahamic faiths, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity.