Transitional Churches

[Ernie]

The River Brethren have figured out a way to keep tradition without legislating it, while also benefitting from education and modernization. (It comes with a risk. Their retention numbers are lower than other very Plain groups.) But a case could be made for their worldview, i.e., few people are pressured to stay River Brethren. Those who are part of the church are there by choice.

In contrast, most people who want these benefits of education and modernization are not interested in the tradition part of it. And they think they need to leave traditional churches in order to gain the benefits they want. This is a falsehood. It is a falsehood - unless they are looking for a modernized theology as well. If the latter, then of course the River Brethren approach is not a good option for them.

[JohnH]

In the words of Billy Joel, they don't know where they're going but they're sure what they're leaving behind.

Where can I read or listen to this?

https://genius.com/Billy-joel-my-life-lyrics

[Southerner]

Something that is hard for Transitionals to understand is the amount of value that Traditionals and the traditional movement benefit from reading and
studying history.

It is also hard for Traditionals to understand that Transitionals can study history and have a sense of loss and nostalgia, yet also have a clear sense of growth and gains they experienced as a Transitional that they could not have experienced as a Traditionalist.

As someone who is still traditional but has transitioned away from the most traditional, I can appreciate and agree with what you are saying.

I tell my daughters that if they ever get tired of the transitional environment, in which many of their contemporaries are on the move, of in which non-traditional experiments are not working out to well, I would urge them to consider something more stable and more traditional.

Are there churches that aren't transitioning excluding the plainest ones such as the Stauffer Mennonites and Washington-Franklin? There's a lot of transition within Groffdale and Weaverland. Some CoGICM woman are now wearing slacks and German Baptist, New Conference are changing fairly quickly. So, I think most groups are transitioning.

[joshuabgood]

In the words of Billy Joel, they don't know where they're going but they're sure what they're leaving behind.

Where can I read or listen to this?

JohnH posted the "wrong song" though it also speaks to the underlying theme I think of the transitionals and there difficulty with tradition. The song I was referring to speaks to a woman leaving her man with regard to "those words or something similar."

From my perspective, there is a caution in this type of reasoning as it bodes of recklessness. On the other hand, some people have had experiences in traditional settings that are so negative/damaging that it actually makes perfect sense.

[Ernie]

From my perspective, there is a caution in this type of reasoning as it bodes of recklessness. On the other hand, some people have had experiences in traditional settings that are so negative/damaging that it actually makes perfect sense.

I am very familiar with the negative/damaging experiences and understand the deep troubles it can cause. I have relatives affected by this. But similar sorts of negativity and damage happen in progressive settings as well. So the solution is not to look for something more traditional or more progressive but look for something that is investing in preventative measures and a community that knows how to address abuse and neglect in a redemptive manner rather than in a manner that only makes the issues worse.

[Ernie]

In general, traditionalists are attempting to stave off fickleness, shifting priorities, and cultural fatigue. The new order within progressivism often leads to transient communities, fragmented connections, and disillusionment.

In general, progressives are attempting to stave off stagnation, rigidity, and suppression of individuality. The old is not always better.

I think that the River Brethren provide a decent (not perfect) model of accommodating the best of both.

[GaryK]

From my perspective, there is a caution in this type of reasoning as it bodes of recklessness. On the other hand, some people have had experiences in traditional settings that are so negative/damaging that it actually makes perfect sense.

I am very familiar with the negative/damaging experiences and understand the deep troubles it can cause. I have relatives affected by this. But similar sorts of negativity and damage happen in progressive settings as well. So the solution is not to look for something more traditional or more progressive but look for something that is investing in preventative measures and a community that knows how to address abuse and neglect in a redemptive manner rather than in a manner that only makes the issues worse.

Well said.

[JohnH]

Are there churches that aren't transitioning excluding the plainest ones such as the Stauffer Mennonites and Washington-Franklin? There's a lot of transition within Groffdale and Weaverland. Some CoGICM woman are now wearing slacks

This isn't happening, other than in very cold climates where wearing pants outside is apparently OK. "Drift" in COGICM circles would be wearing skirts & shirts, or store-bought dresses. If someone is regularly wearing pants in public, they were probably on their way out of church and planning to leave. (Analyzing someone's Facebook, Instagram, etc. is usually an easy way to see if they are on this trajectory.)

Generally speaking COGICM people are far less focused on clothing issues than other groups, particularly in Canada. Nevertheless, in the U.S., men are almost never seen in public wearing athletic pants (albeit I am sitting right now in such a pair, and would be quite embarrassed if a fellow member "caught" me, despite having an adequate excuse for doing so). The actual areas of drift that are a concern are recorded music, recorded instrumental music, and photography.

The OTC or OTC-ish groups, Swartzentrubers, Stauffers, Reformed Mennonites (John Herr), Holdemans, and ACC Nazareans (East) have surprisingly little drift. For example, the ACC Nazarean (East) churches generally have less drift now than their ACC cousins, to the point people keep moving their membership between congregations. 20-30 years ago, the Nazareans would have been considered far more "liberal" and less plain. Nowadays they are neck and neck with the ACC, but the Nazareans aren't really changing.

I don't really have a solid theory for why OTC or OTC-ish groups have less drift.

and German Baptist, New Conference are changing fairly quickly. So, I think most groups are transitioning.

The obvious question would be if the 3 or so subgroups of the OGBB Old Conference are also changing quickly. My impression is one of the subgroups is and one of the other's isn't, but I'm just basing that on what I hear from NC people with a lot of connections.

[R7ehr]

Some CoGICM woman are now wearing slacks and German Baptist, New Conference are changing fairly quickly.

So many questions! Those must be some strong women. How does one go about sourcing and selecting a German Baptist to wear?

[joshuabgood]

From my perspective, there is a caution in this type of reasoning as it bodes of recklessness. On the other hand, some people have had experiences in traditional settings that are so negative/damaging that it actually makes perfect sense.

I am very familiar with the negative/damaging experiences and understand the deep troubles it can cause. I have relatives affected by this. But similar sorts of negativity and damage happen in progressive settings as well. So the solution is not to look for something more traditional or more progressive but look for something that is investing in preventative measures and a community that knows how to address abuse and neglect in a redemptive manner rather than in a manner that only makes the issues worse.

For me the question sort of is...what is being transitioned from? And what is being transitioned to? What is being "kept" and what is being "progressed?"

From my perspective, while there is of course subjectivity involved, there are actually compelling answers and less compelling answers in all cases.