Transitional Churches

[cmbl]

As I said earlier, churches that are counter-culture don't always have generation gap. I remember as a youth that onlookers marveled how that our conference did not have a generation gap. (There were a few slight changes but very little. If anything the conference keeps inching toward a more conservative position on many practical issues.

And maybe to follow up: how does your conference include the youth in these discussions? If there’s a slight trend to more conservative application embraced by the youth, that would say to me that young people are actively thinking about how to apply the church’s principles in a slightly different context than their parents’ context. And I’d guess the way they describe the application and the reasons for it would be different than their parents would have at the same age.

In the Washington/Franklin Conference and in the Weaverland Conference, there have been efforts (the last 25 years by some church leaders) to take more defined stances on particular beliefs and practices, and to expect greater uniformity across the conference. This does not necessarily reflect the persuasions of the youth or even the majority in the church. Youth do not help choose the leaders other than by praying for the Lord's will do be shown through the nominations and use of the lot.
A leader who received 15% or less of the vote, may be chosen by lot. Those chosen by lot are typically ordained for life, which results in these individuals having a lot of influence.

I'm curious as to your thoughts on the long-term effects of these efforts to take defined stances and expect greater uniformity. Do these efforts fit within the "ethos" of Washington/Franklin and Weaverland Conference? Or are they a carryover from the Fundamentalist groups such as Eastern? I have heard (ex-)Old Order and (ex-)Washington County people talk about how, in certain areas, the youth were expected not to look exactly like the adults. At a certain age, the color of socks, or covering strings, changes from, say, white to black "to make room for the young people." Whereas in Eastern, much effort was expended trying to achieve uniformity.

In the early 20th century, it was the revivalist Mennonites who adopted new strictures such as restrictions on Sunday youth activities, prescribing specific forms of plain dress, etc. Are these efforts in Washington/Franklin and Weaverland a re-run of those?

[Ernie]

I'm curious as to your thoughts on the long-term effects of these efforts to take defined stances and expect greater uniformity. Do these efforts fit within the "ethos" of Washington/Franklin and Weaverland Conference? Or are they a carryover from the Fundamentalist groups such as Eastern? I have heard (ex-)Old Order and (ex-)Washington County people talk about how, in certain areas, the youth were expected not to look exactly like the adults. At a certain age, the color of socks, or covering strings, changes from, say, white to black "to make room for the young people." Whereas in Eastern, much effort was expended trying to achieve uniformity.

In the early 20th century, it was the revivalist Mennonites who adopted new strictures such as restrictions on Sunday youth activities, prescribing specific forms of plain dress, etc. Are these efforts in Washington/Franklin and Weaverland a re-run of those?

Those of us who like to study the gradual transitions in Weaverland and W/F would probably say the answer the underlined questions is "yes".

When I was about 20 years old, I remember and elderly W/F man at work telling me that he can understand the appeal that Eastern churches have. "When you attend their church services, it is nice to see everything in order and uniform." He then said, "But..." and I forget the next sentence.

Anyhow, just passing this anecdote along to point out that W/F people were already noticing this in the 90's and thought it was attractive. Some had already pulled out of W/F and started their own Eastern church in our area. Others like the elderly man stayed with the conference because he thought there was some benefit in staying. However, he still thought this orderliness and uniformity was attractive. I must admit that I thought the same thing as an older teen. By my mid 20's I no longer thought this. I began to see the benefit of diversity within the context of principled living.

[JohnH]

I was thinking about what Ernie said about transitional Anabaptists and particularly Ervin Stutzman's trajectory.

Something that is hard for Transitionals to understand is the amount of value that Traditionals and the traditional movement benefit from reading and
studying history.

Recently a mover and shaker in the Progressive-conservative movement (who grew up in an ultra-conservative setting) told me that he has never seemed to be able to get inspiration from looking backwards. Serving the present and the future is what gives him inspiration. (I can see how he came to this conclusion. His dad was the worst of hypocrites, and his mom didn't give him much to build on either. To his credit, he's doing a fair bit better than many of his siblings. We'll see if his children are able to benefit something from his attempt at authenticity.)

My dad used to tell me about Beachy Amish-Mennonites of his era who were known to say, "It's not important to know where we came from. It is important to know where we are going." And so, when I began interacting with Beachy Amish-Mennonites, it was interesting to hear a young father who grew up New Order Amish, make this same comment. And guess where this 60 year old's children are today.

The Traditionalist perspective goes like this, "It is hard to know where you are going unless you understand where you came from."

Some time ago a Beachy with interest in history did a nice book including photographs about this history of his congregation, one of the first Beachy Amish-Mennonite congregations. He got a bunch of copies printed. He thought he wrote it interestingly. And with a smile on his face, he assured us that it had no bias. My reading in the book revealed a strong support of Fundamentalist and Evangelical changes that made the church into what it was. It didn't really wet an appetite for the sort of rootedness and appreciation for historical values that a person might glean from reading the Earth is the Lords. He had a really hard time getting people to buy his book, even those who were very familiar with his church. He tried promoting them at the constituency Bible school but the young people were not interested in it. He kept discounting them and finally just gave them away.

I remember telling my fellow teachers at the Bible School that if a book like this had been published in an Ultra-conservative church, he would have likely have found buyers for all his books. He may have even needed to do more printings.

All this to say that those who have a distaste for, or at the best have an indifference about their heritage -- they are not likely going to try to preserve the good parts of the heritage for their children, and for sure not buy history books about their heritage. For them, history is bunk.

Ervin was born a twin into an Amish home in Kalona, Iowa. After his father’s death a few years later, his mother moved the family to her home community near Hutchinson, Kan. Ervin was baptized in the Center Amish Mennonite Church near Partridge. Later, he joined the Yoder Mennonite Church. Ervin married Bonita Haldeman of Manheim, Pa. Together they served for five years with Rosedale Mennonite Missions in Cincinnati, part of that time in voluntary service. Ervin was ordained to serve as co-pastor of Mennonite Christian Assembly. From there, the Stutzmans moved to Pennsylvania,
where they were members of the Mount Joy Mennonite Church: In 1982, the family moved to Lancaster, Pa., where Stutzman became associate director of the home ministries department of Eastern Mennonite Missions. In 1984, he was ordained as bishop of the Landisville District of Lancaster Mennonite Conference.

He was moderator of Lancaster (PA) Mennonite Conference, 1991-2000, and moderator of Mennonite Church USA, 2001-2003, the newly-merged denomination joining the Mennonite Church and the General Conference Mennonite Church.

The EMS dean completed his undergraduate work at Cincinnati Bible College, earned an MA degree from the University of Cincinnati, a master of arts in religion degree from Eastern Mennonite Seminary and a Ph.D. in communication from Temple University.

Stutzman joined the seminary faculty in 1998 and was named dean in July 2000. He is also founding director of the seminary’s Preaching Institute.

They currently live in Harrisonburg, Va., and are members of Park View Mennonite Church,

Ervin's trajectory is interesting to me; he started out Amish, ended up being baptized at a Beachy church, then ended up becoming part of a church that is now part of LMC (obviously, one that would be conservative, but a little less so than Beachys at the time). Then they went to do missions with the CMC. I am unclear on what affiliation "Mennonite Christian Assembly" was in 1982. From there, he ended up becoming part of LMC leadership. They finally settled in a Virginia Conference church (probably the most conservative conference still in MC USA, but not as conservative as LMC would be.)

He does seem to be someone who appreciated history - he wrote many books essentially looking backwards. What I wonder is if anyone back at Partridge, where ⅔ of the Amish were persuaded to become Beachys are otherwise, could have foreseen (or would have even bothered to try to foresee) the direction they were actually taking everyone, including someone who clearly had a gift for both writing and for leadership.

[ohio jones]

Ervin married Bonita Haldeman of Manheim, Pa. Together they served for five years with Rosedale Mennonite Missions in Cincinnati, part of that time in voluntary service. Ervin was ordained to serve as co-pastor of Mennonite Christian Assembly.

I am unclear on what affiliation "Mennonite Christian Assembly" was in 1982.

CMC. This was MCA in Cincinnati (it had several names over the years and is no longer extant), not the one in Fredericksburg, which did not begin until after the Stutzmans were in PA.

[cooper]

Something that is hard for Transitionals to understand is the amount of value that Traditionals and the traditional movement benefit from reading and
studying history.

It is also hard for Traditionals to understand that Transitionals can study history and have a sense of loss and nostalgia, yet also have a clear sense of growth and gains they experienced as a Transitional that they could not have experienced as a Traditionalist.

[Ernie]

Something that is hard for Transitionals to understand is the amount of value that Traditionals and the traditional movement benefit from reading and
studying history.

It is also hard for Traditionals to understand that Transitionals can study history and have a sense of loss and nostalgia, yet also have a clear sense of growth and gains they experienced as a Transitional that they could not have experienced as a Traditionalist.

As someone who is still traditional but has transitioned away from the most traditional, I can appreciate and agree with what you are saying.

I tell my daughters that if they ever get tired of the transitional environment, in which many of their contemporaries are on the move, of in which non-traditional experiments are not working out to well, I would urge them to consider something more stable and more traditional. And we talk about what options they might have along that line.
I suppose Mike is an example of a dad who actually put this into practice for his family.

[JohnH]

I tell my daughters that if they ever get tired of the transitional environment, in which many of their contemporaries are on the move, of in which non-traditional experiments are not working out to well, I would urge them to consider something more stable and more traditional. And we talk about what options they might have along that line.
I suppose Mike is an example of a dad who actually put this into practice for his family.

Does it bother you at all for them to be growing up in a peer environment where being transitional is viewed as more spiritual/the "better" thing to do?

[joshuabgood]

Something that is hard for Transitionals to understand is the amount of value that Traditionals and the traditional movement benefit from reading and
studying history.

It is also hard for Traditionals to understand that Transitionals can study history and have a sense of loss and nostalgia, yet also have a clear sense of growth and gains they experienced as a Transitional that they could not have experienced as a Traditionalist.

In the words of Billy Joel, they don't know where they're going but they're sure what they're leaving behind.

[Ernie]

I tell my daughters that if they ever get tired of the transitional environment, in which many of their contemporaries are on the move, of in which non-traditional experiments are not working out to well, I would urge them to consider something more stable and more traditional. And we talk about what options they might have along that line.
I suppose Mike is an example of a dad who actually put this into practice for his family.

Does it bother you at all for them to be growing up in a peer environment where being transitional is viewed as more spiritual/the "better" thing to do?

Not at this point. Depending on how they would have processed all of this a few years ago, it could have been very concerning. But at this point they are not attracted to it at all. They are even writing school papers arguing against it.

[Ernie]

In the words of Billy Joel, they don't know where they're going but they're sure what they're leaving behind.

Where can I read or listen to this?