Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Szdfan]

There were treaties available and the US would not let them happen.

I don’t think this is true. Which treaties did the US not allow happen?

[Szdfan]

The more I see in the news about this war, the more I am reminded of the Holodomor, when the USSR (Stalin era) caused the worsening of a natural disaster (drought) to create a famine, and to pursue the elimination of an entire people group, the Ukrainians. (Or, perhaps more accaretely, to "empty Ukraine of its citizens, whether Ukrainian or other ethnic groups who were not wanted by the Soviets.)

This is really starting to look like genocide - death by freezing.

Others were saying this long ago (Jan 25, 2023):

November also marked the 90th anniversary of the Holodomor, the deliberately engineered famine that’s estimated to have killed about 3.9 million Ukrainians living under Soviet rule between 1932-33. As Chicago’s Ukrainian community prepared for an event at Chicago’s Water Tower in remembrance of the atrocity, Ukrainian leadership reported that Russia’s strikes on infrastructure had damaged more than 50 percent of Ukraine’s energy facilities. It’s not hard to find parallels between 90 years ago and today.

“This was a deliberate genocide that happened in order to wipe Ukrainians off the face of the Earth,” Bandriwsky said. “Now, 90 years later, almost to the day, we’re seeing a different type of genocide. We see genocide by freezing and basically causing massive death and destruction to people.”

Reference:
https://chicagoreader.com/news-politics ... scale-war/

There are also accounts by refugees from Russian occupied Ukraine of a brutal occupation that is attempting to wipe out Ukrainian culture and language.

[Robert]

I don’t think this is true. Which treaties did the US not allow happen?

Treaty might be too strong of a word. There were negotiations. The US would not let Ukraine agree to any of the Russian demands. I think England and another country were involved and were in agreement with the terms. I am just going by memory of something a couple of years ago. I can not give you better details right now.

[temporal1]

Treaty might be too strong of a word. There were negotiations.
The US would not let Ukraine agree to any of the Russian demands. I think England and another country were involved and were in agreement with the terms.

I am just going by memory of something a couple of years ago. I can not give you better details right now.

It was discussed earlier in this topic. i’m not digging for it either.

[JohnH]

There were treaties available and the US would not let them happen.

I don’t think this is true. Which treaties did the US not allow happen?

The INF treaty... a very important one, which would have prevented the hypersonic missile we saw demonstrated last week

Russia lived up to treaty obligations since the U.S.S.R. collapsed. The same cannot be said of the U.S. but the US decide to withdraw from the INF treaty anyway

[Ken]

I don’t think this is true. Which treaties did the US not allow happen?

The INF treaty... a very important one, which would have prevented the hypersonic missile we saw demonstrated last week

Russia lived up to treaty obligations since the U.S.S.R. collapsed. The same cannot be said of the U.S. but the US decide to withdraw from the INF treaty anyway

Trump withdrew from the INF treaty in 2019.

But the Russians had been out of compliance for at least a decade prior to that decision by Trump. https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_162996.htm And neither China nor Iran were parties to the agreement at all and both produced such missiles by the thousands.

I don't necessarily defend Trump's decision to pull out of the INF treaty in 2019. They could have taken a different approach to Russian violations such as sanctions. But at that point in time, the US was really the only missile producing country that was complying with the treaty.

[JohnH]

... China and Iran produced hypersonic missiles by the thousands? What?

[R7ehr]

I see that Zelenskyy has said that there are conditions where he would cease fighting without regaining his whole country back.

[Ken]

... China and Iran produced hypersonic missiles by the thousands? What?

The INF treaty wasn't about hypersonic missiles, it was about medium-range ballistic missiles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermedi ... ces_Treaty

And yes, China produces them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DF-26
And so does Iran: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emad_(missile)
And so does North Korea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KN-23 (which Russia is currently using in Ukraine.)

[JohnH]

The INF treaty wasn't about hypersonic missiles, it was about medium-range ballistic missiles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermedi ... ces_Treaty

from your wikipedia link

The INF Treaty banned all of the two nations' nuclear and conventional ground-launched ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, and missile launchers with ranges of 500–1,000 kilometers (310–620 mi) (short medium-range) and 1,000–5,500 km (620–3,420 mi) (intermediate-range).

The U.S. withdrew from the INF treaty, which I think was a bad thing to do

Hypersonic missiles like the one Russia demonstrated last week are "intermediate range' (2,000-3,000 km), probably launched from Kazakhstan, and targeted at Dnipro. These are a bad development since the only real effect is that it gives much less time to react because they travel so much faster. That is why the treaty was in place, to stop an "arms race" between U.S./NATO and Russia. Well, the treaty is dead and gone, and obviously Russia went and developed them in the 5 years since then.

The US has said they want to deploy medium range missiles in Germany but so far it has not yet deployed them.

Overall, this is bad leadership on the part of the U.S., we should seek to be in non-proliferation treaties and so far Russia has complied with non-proliferation treaties for the past 25 years. But I guess America doesn't want to do that anymore so now we get to live in a world with more and more advanced and dangerous weapon systems

This ad from the 1970s seems more relevant now than ever.