Outcomes of Overturning Roe Vs. Wade

[Ken]

I imagine the rates were trending down due to access to the pills.

The graph doesn't show rates. It shows total numbers. The fall in abortions would be even more dramatic if the graph was showing rates because the population has increased by at least 90 million since 1990.

[barnhart]

I imagine the rates were trending down due to access to the pills.

The graph doesn't show rates. It shows total numbers. The fall in abortions would be even more dramatic if the graph was showing rates because the population has increased by at least 90 million since 1990.

This is also interesting. Rates are probably a better metric for gauging abortion as a social behavior but actual numbers capture the scale.

[Josh]

Prove it to me that people are murdering babies "mere seconds" before they are born, ye self-proclaimed arbitrator of truth.

Szd, would you mind answering the question?

Do you think there is any circumstance in which abortion is morally wrong?

I do think there are circumstances where aborton is wrong.

"Partial-birth abortions" is a political term, not a scientific one. Most of them occurred prior to the third trimester, before viability. They weren't happening "mere seconds" before birth. D&X's typically happened due to medical necessity, of because elective reasons.

Do you really think that women who are in labor are suddenly aborting their babies seconds before they are born or are you using hyperbolic rhetoric? I think you hurt your own argument when you employ hyperbola like this.

Third-trimester abortions were common in the 1980s and 1990s. When I was young, my best friend’s mother had had one - the pregnancy she had after him. They were fairly commonplace and basically used as birth control, such as if a relationship with the child’s father ended, as often happened after several months of pregnancy.

I think you hurt your own case when you refuse to accept the reality of how grisly the baby-murdering factions really are.

“Partial-birth abortion” is not a political term. Let me explain to you how it is done since you seem to be unaware:

#1. Various drugs are administered similar to a second-trimester abortion to cause dilation.

#2. The abortionist manipulates the baby so as to be positioned for a breech birth (often causing harm to the baby as they do so).

#3. The baby is then mechanically extracted breech, with the head remaining inside, and then a pair of surgical scissors is used to stab the back of the baby’s head and a suction tool to suck the baby’s brains out

#4. With the skull now cavitated, it is simple to pull the collapsed head out of the now-dead baby.

Of course, this is murder just like every other form of abortion is murder. What is notable is how pro-abortion advocates want to pretend it doesn’t happen and hasn’t happened. What is even more disturbing is that anyone who claims to be a Mennonite and care about life could possibly ever advocate for such a position.

[Ernie]

I think you hurt your own case when you refuse to accept the reality of how grisly the baby-murdering factions really are.
...
Of course, this is murder just like every other form of abortion is murder. What is notable is how pro-abortion advocates want to pretend it doesn’t happen and hasn’t happened. What is even more disturbing is that anyone who claims to be a Mennonite and care about life could possibly ever advocate for such a position.

I think this is horrible, and I think it is terrible when Mennonites condone this sort of thing, and I think Romans 13 indicates that it is the responsibility of civil government to use the sword to deter this sort of thing from happening.

But you didn't address the question of whether you are using hyperbole regarding the "mere seconds".

[ken_sylvania]

The percentage of pregnancies terminated by abortion has been steadily rising since 2017.

Some data suggests that the rate of abortions may have increased by 5% from 2020 to 2021. If that is so, then it's likely that if the gap in the trend line of the chart provided by Guttmacher were filled in, it would show the rate of increase actually slowing after Dobbs.

[barnhart]

The percentage of pregnancies terminated by abortion has been steadily rising since 2017.

Here is a third metric. The rate in the earlier graph was per women in childbearing years, not per pregnancy.

[Josh]

I think you hurt your own case when you refuse to accept the reality of how grisly the baby-murdering factions really are.
...
Of course, this is murder just like every other form of abortion is murder. What is notable is how pro-abortion advocates want to pretend it doesn’t happen and hasn’t happened. What is even more disturbing is that anyone who claims to be a Mennonite and care about life could possibly ever advocate for such a position.

I think this is horrible, and I think it is terrible when Mennonites condone this sort of thing, and I think Romans 13 indicates that it is the responsibility of civil government to use the sword to deter this sort of thing from happening.

But you didn't address the question of whether you are using hyperbole regarding the "mere seconds".

Perhaps a slight bit of hyperbole, because in a D&X (a partial-birth abortion), the abortion is performed right before a birth would otherwise happen.

[temporal1]

Although the kill rate is very high for all descriptions abortion, whether surgical, chemical, and now the hugely popular poison pills, some babies survive all efforts. Then, what?

Rather than recognize the God-created infant as a survivor and miracle, his/her life is viewed as a rank failure,
worthy of a gruesome death penalty.

2023 / Newborns who survive abortion now hidden from view in Minnesota, denied right to lifesaving care
https://dioceseduluth.org/news/newborns ... aving-care

.. In recent years, five born-alive infants were reported in 2015, five in 2016, three in 2017, three in 2018, three in 2019, and five in 2021, according to the Minnesota Department of Health. This information will no longer be available.

Lawmakers this year also repealed Minnesota’s requirement that reasonable measures be taken to “preserve the life and health” of born-alive infants, replacing it with a requirement for “care,” which the bill’s House author, Rep. Tina Liebling, DFL-Rochester, has described as mere “comfort” care. Under the new language, an infant could be denied lifesaving care and allowed to die.

In support of repealing the protection for newborns, some lawmakers claimed that the repealed language required inappropriate or futile attempts to save the infants’ lives. Instead, the repealed law simply required “reasonable measures consistent with good medical practice.” Disabled babies, whose lives are often devalued, could be especially at risk from the denial of this basic protection.

^^i don’t have the source, i read somewhere, after Gov Walz signed the bill, 8 newborns were allowed to die from neglect.
All abortions are gruesome. No matter method. They are violent. They end human life.

- - - - - - - -

(i wish) the word, “woman” would not be loosely used to include pregnant teens and/or children.
Being pregnant doesn’t mature a child or teen, not physically, mentally, spiritually.

[temporal1]

I think you hurt your own case when you refuse to accept the reality of how grisly the baby-murdering factions really are.
...
Of course, this is murder just like every other form of abortion is murder. What is notable is how pro-abortion advocates want to pretend it doesn’t happen and hasn’t happened. What is even more disturbing is that anyone who claims to be a Mennonite and care about life could possibly ever advocate for such a position.

I think this is horrible, and I think it is terrible when Mennonites condone this sort of thing, and I think Romans 13 indicates that it is the responsibility of civil government to use the sword to deter this sort of thing from happening.

But you didn't address the question of whether you are using hyperbole regarding the "mere seconds".

Perhaps a slight bit of hyperbole, because in a D&X (a partial-birth abortion), the abortion is performed right before a birth would otherwise happen.

i don’t see it as hyperbole. Years ago, i viewed a video of a full term abortion. Hideous.
Many things can cause labor to begin, at any stage. We experienced 3 “spontaneous abortions” never knowing the cause.

Any attempt at any description abortion (i.e., trauma) can induce labor. After 30 weeks, most infants survive; with care, lots of infants survive after only 20 weeks. Medical people here know more.

By tampering with the pregnancy, labor is induced, the baby is killed against its God-created will. God creates babies to live.
They do their very best, no doubt about that.

They are defenseless against their more powerful assassins.

i wouldn’t want to give those poison pills to a dog, let alone a pregnant human beng.
i have trouble believing it’s real.

[Szdfan]

Szd, would you mind answering the question?

Do you think there is any circumstance in which abortion is morally wrong?

I do think there are circumstances where abortion is wrong.

"Partial-birth abortions" is a political term, not a scientific one. Most of them occurred prior to the third trimester, before viability. They weren't happening "mere seconds" before birth. D&X's typically happened due to medical necessity, of because elective reasons.

Do you really think that women who are in labor are suddenly aborting their babies seconds before they are born or are you using hyperbolic rhetoric? I think you hurt your own argument when you employ hyperbola like this.

Third-trimester abortions were common in the 1980s and 1990s.

D&X has never been a common abortion procedure. The procedure wasn't introduced until around 1995 and in 2000, it only made up 0.17 - 0.2% of abortions. The procedure was banned in 2003 and the ban was upheld by the Supreme Court in 2007. So who was having all of these partial birth abortions after the procedure was made illegal?

When I was young, my best friend’s mother had had one - the pregnancy she had after him. They were fairly commonplace and basically used as birth control, such as if a relationship with the child’s father ended, as often happened after several months of pregnancy.

I agree with you that's terrible, and I agree with you that it's immoral. However, again, D&Xs were not a common form of birth control when they were legal and most of them happened before the third trimester because of medical complications.

I think you hurt your own case when you refuse to accept the reality of how grisly the baby-murdering factions really are.

“Partial-birth abortion” is not a political term. Let me explain to you how it is done since you seem to be unaware:

#1. Various drugs are administered similar to a second-trimester abortion to cause dilation.

#2. The abortionist manipulates the baby so as to be positioned for a breech birth (often causing harm to the baby as they do so).

#3. The baby is then mechanically extracted breech, with the head remaining inside, and then a pair of surgical scissors is used to stab the back of the baby’s head and a suction tool to suck the baby’s brains out

#4. With the skull now cavitated, it is simple to pull the collapsed head out of the now-dead baby.

That's really terrible, but again, that procedure has been federally banned since 2003. Women are not choosing to have abortions while they are in labor seconds before the baby is born. You've written a lot of emotional stuff, but you haven't actually provided any evidence that abortions are happening "mere seconds" before birth.

Of course, this is murder just like every other form of abortion is murder. What is notable is how pro-abortion advocates want to pretend it doesn’t happen and hasn’t happened. What is even more disturbing is that anyone who claims to be a Mennonite and care about life could possibly ever advocate for such a position.

If abortion is always murder, are miscarriages manslaughter? If your wife has a miscarriage, should the police investigate her and charge her because she unintentionally killed the baby growing inside of her? That's the logical conclusion of what you're advocating and considering that miscarriage is extremely common, a lot of women are then guilty of manslaughter.

I think abortion is tragic, but I also think it's morally objectionable to force women who medically need an abortion because something has seriously gone wrong with the pregnancy, to wait in the parking lot until they are almost dead before they can receive the procedure to save their lives --

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... -hospitals

The molar pregnancy Jaci Statton had would never become a baby. It was cancerous, though.

At the last hospital in Oklahoma she went to during her ordeal last month, Statton says staff told her and her husband that she could not get a surgical abortion until she became much sicker.

"They were very sincere; they weren't trying to be mean," Statton, 25, says. "They said, 'The best we can tell you to do is sit in the parking lot, and if anything else happens, we will be ready to help you. But we cannot touch you unless you are crashing in front of us or your blood pressure goes so high that you are fixing to have a heart attack.'"

After weeks of feeling terrible – nauseous and dizzy and weak – Statton had a sudden episode of heavy bleeding that sent her to the emergency room. At her OB-GYN the next day, she learned she had a type of molar pregnancy, in which some of the tissue is cancerous. Molar pregnancy happens when a fertilized egg has too many chromosomes. It does not develop into a viable fetus. It is usually a benign condition, but in about 15% of cases, like Jaci's, it is cancerous. Her doctor told her she was at risk of hemorrhage and even death, but that she couldn't get treated there.

The treatment for a patient in her condition is a dilation and curettage or D&C – an abortion procedure that clears pregnancy tissue from the uterus. Over the course of a week, again and again, she says doctors told her they could not care for her.

After a week of being transferred to three different Oklahoma hospitals, Statton says her doctors actually suggested she leave the state and go to a place where an abortion is legal.

She and Dustin ended up driving three hours to an abortion clinic in Kansas where she was able to get a D&C. She's now facing another surgery to remove more cancerous tissue, and she may need chemotherapy.

I think the fact that politicians and lawyers determined what kind of medical care Stratton and other women in her situation are allowed to receive is immoral. I don't think laws that force women to almost die before they can receive an abortion values life.