Outcomes of Overturning Roe Vs. Wade

[Josh]

Prove it to me that people are murdering babies "mere seconds" before they are born, ye self-proclaimed arbitrator of truth.

It’s called a “partial birth abortion” and was vehemently defended by the left. The current radical pro-abortion special interest groups want to remove any and all restrictions on abortion, including this.

Are you claiming America hasn’t had partial-birth abortions? Would you like me to share more details?

[Josh]

Why are you so focused on the number of months? That is completely inconsistent with the belief that life begins at conception and that the death of any fertilized egg is murder whether it happens in a fertility clinic or obstetrics ward of a hospital? Are not all fetuses equal?

I am not focused on that. However, in terms of political reality, most people in America support abortion being legal up to 6 weeks and many support up to 12 weeks or viability.

If abortion from a single cell embryo onwards is murder, why is the death of a fetus at 6 or 7 months any different from the death of a fertilized embryo? Should you not instead be focused on the deaths of fertilized embryos which is extremely common rather than the deaths of 7 month old fetuses which is extremely rare? The fact that the anti-abortion movement is so focused on months suggests they don't really believe their own rhetoric about life beginning at conception.

I believe all abortion at any age is murder. However, I don’t write the laws.

In any event, no one waits until the 3rd trimester to have discretionary abortions. Women in those circumstances don't want abortions. Any more than anyone ever wants any other invasive procedure such as an amputation or organ transplant if it isn't necessary. The law is simply saying that in the event of a pregnancy gone wrong and where it needs to be terminated for medical reasons, that decision should be made by medical professionals and not the courts or legal system.

Yes, such abortions used to be quite common, actually, in the heyday of abortion-on-demand. Pro-life activists worked hard to get laws passed despite Roe v Wade to restrict them.

[Josh]

The better question, though, is what do you support? Do you think it is always wrong to murder a baby right before it's born? Or are there valid "exceptions"?

Prove it to me that people are murdering babies "mere seconds" before they are born, ye self-proclaimed arbitrator of truth.

Szd, would you mind answering the question?

Do you think there is any circumstance in which abortion is morally wrong?

[Bootstrap]

According to Guttmacher, abortion rates are higher than before Roe vs. Wade. These are preliminary numbers, and Guttmacher is obviously an abortion lobby group, but their numbers have generally been trustworthy:

https://www.guttmacher.org/2024/03/desp ... eased-2023

New findings from the Monthly Abortion Provision Study show that an estimated 1,037,000 abortions occurred in the formal health care system in 2023, the first full calendar year after the US Supreme Court’s decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization overturned Roe v. Wade. This represents a rate of 15.9 abortions per 1,000 women of reproductive age,* and is a 11% increase since 2020, the last year for which comprehensive estimates are available. It is also the highest number and rate measured in the United States in over a decade.

You can see their projection in the data point on the right in this graph, in the red-shaded area labeled "2023". Also, note the overall trend in abortions has been going down for quite a while. Recently, it has started trending up again. I don't know why.

[Soloist]

I imagine the rates were trending down due to access to the pills.

[barnhart]

I imagine the rates were trending down due to access to the pills.

Interesting. I wonder if there is any way to track this.

[Bootstrap]

I imagine the rates were trending down due to access to the pills.

The article seems to say that these rates include abortion via pills, and lists them as one reason abortion rates are going up:

Several factors potentially contribute to this increased access:

Broader availability of telehealth for medication abortion. The use of telehealth to provide medication abortion via mail increased considerably after the U.S. Food and Drug Administration lifted in-person dispensing requirements of mifepristone—one of the drugs most commonly used in medication abortion—during the pandemic. Telehealth now represents a substantial portion of abortion provision in states without abortion bans. Numerous providers, including virtual clinics, have adapted telehealth to meet patient needs, and the availability of telehealth may have increased access, particularly for people in rural areas or who otherwise may not have been able to travel to a clinic for care.

Abortions in neighboring states also seem to be going up:

States bordering ban states had particularly large increases.‡ In total, abortions in these states increased by 38% between 2020 and 2023, with particularly sharp increases in Illinois (37,700 more abortions than in 2020, or an increase of 71%), New Mexico (15,070 more abortions, an increase of 256%), Virginia (14,420, an increase of 77%) and North Carolina (13,890, or 44%). Much of the increase in these states was due to increased travel across state lines. Illinois, for example, provided abortion care to an estimated 26,000 more patients from out of state, accounting for 69% of its overall increase.

I don't think we have won the "hearts and minds" in this debate yet.

[Szdfan]

The better question, though, is what do you support? Do you think it is always wrong to murder a baby right before it's born? Or are there valid "exceptions"?

Prove it to me that people are murdering babies "mere seconds" before they are born, ye self-proclaimed arbitrator of truth.

Szd, would you mind answering the question?

Do you think there is any circumstance in which abortion is morally wrong?

I do think there are circumstances where aborton is wrong.

"Partial-birth abortions" is a political term, not a scientific one. Most of them occurred prior to the third trimester, before viability. They weren't happening "mere seconds" before birth. D&X's typically happened due to medical necessity, of because elective reasons.

Do you really think that women who are in labor are suddenly aborting their babies seconds before they are born or are you using hyperbolic rhetoric? I think you hurt your own argument when you employ hyperbola like this.

[Szdfan]

viability. They weren't happening "mere seconds" before birth. D&X's typically happened due to medical necessity, of because elective reasons.

Oops! I meant to say "not because of elective reasons."

[Szdfan]

Also... haven't D&X "partial birth" abortions been federally banned since 2003? Who are all these women who are supposedly aborting their babies seconds before they are born?