Are the Turtles Beating us?

[Ernie]

Jesus had more to say about hell (Hades & Gehenna) than any other person in the New Testament that we have record of.

However, I don't see any "sermons" on hell... one of those 45-60 minute sermons in which hell is described and warned against followed by an invitation or altar call.

Jesus preached about all sorts of things and included some sentences about hell along the way. I think this is instructive for us as well.

[ken_sylvania]

Jesus had more to say about hell (Hades & Gehenna) than any other person in the New Testament that we have record of.

However, I don't see any "sermons" on hell... one of those 45-60 minute sermons in which hell is described and warned against followed by an invitation or altar call.

Jesus preached about all sorts of things and included some sentences about hell along the way. I think this is instructive for us as well.

I don't think we have record anywhere of any full sermon preached by Jesus even though it's implied he spoke and taught for hours a time on various occasions.

[Ernie]

Jesus had more to say about hell (Hades & Gehenna) than any other person in the New Testament that we have record of.

However, I don't see any "sermons" on hell... one of those 45-60 minute sermons in which hell is described and warned against followed by an invitation or altar call.

Jesus preached about all sorts of things and included some sentences about hell along the way. I think this is instructive for us as well.

I don't think we have record anywhere of any full sermon preached by Jesus even though it's implied he spoke and taught for hours a time on various occasions.

I'm not sure what piece of what I said you are objecting to... the word "sermon"? Or are you saying we don't have any complete transcript?

I agree that we likely do not have a complete transcript of any lengthy teaching that he did. However, we don't have several chapters of what he said at an occasion on the topic of hell. We do have several chapters on various other themes, and a few verses about hell are sometimes interspersed throughout those teachings.

[barnhart]

Most of what we know of hell comes from Jesus' teaching.

[ken_sylvania]

Jesus had more to say about hell (Hades & Gehenna) than any other person in the New Testament that we have record of.

However, I don't see any "sermons" on hell... one of those 45-60 minute sermons in which hell is described and warned against followed by an invitation or altar call.

Jesus preached about all sorts of things and included some sentences about hell along the way. I think this is instructive for us as well.

I don't think we have record anywhere of any full sermon preached by Jesus even though it's implied he spoke and taught for hours a time on various occasions.

I'm not sure what piece of what I said you are objecting to... the word "sermon"? Or are you saying we don't have any complete transcript?

I agree that we likely do not have a complete transcript of any lengthy teaching that he did. However, we don't have several chapters of what he said at an occasion on the topic of hell. We do have several chapters on various other themes, and a few verses about hell are sometimes interspersed throughout those teachings.

I don't think I really object to what you said. I thought maybe you were implying that Jesus never spent 45 minutes at a time discussing hell - and while that may be the case I don't know that there's enough of a record to say that he did or didn't. The very few instances we have of an "extended discourse" on a subject it is still relatively brief. Perhaps he never did speak on any one subject for more than 15 minutes at a time - I don't know.

[Ernie]

I don't think I really object to what you said. I thought maybe you were implying that Jesus never spent 45 minutes at a time discussing hell - and while that may be the case I don't know that there's enough of a record to say that he did or didn't. The very few instances we have of an "extended discourse" on a subject it is still relatively brief. Perhaps he never did speak on any one subject for more than 15 minutes at a time - I don't know.

Got it.

[Sudsy]

Please point to two encounters recorded in the Gospels in which you would say that Jesus dealt with someone in the same way. (I'm not saying that there definitely aren't any - I just cannot think of any.) My impression is that if he did indeed do that, the Gospel writers, at least, resisted or avoided recording anything like that, possibly to avoid the impression that Jesus gave a fool-proof formula for "preaching the Kingdom".

I have had people tell me that I was a major influence in their lives, to bring them to Christ (or more deeply), but I have never been able to say what I said or did that might have brought that about. Now in respect to a people group like the Banawa, it would be nonsense to use a high pressure approach like that used by many 'evangelists'. They would just do what you ask, and go away the exact same person in thought and action as they were before. One of the central values of the Banawa culture is to please anyone you can. Some individuals are like that too. (But I guess this is getting off topic.)

I agree that our living as believers should have a positive influence on people considering becoming a Christ follower. Jesus said we are to shine our light in a way that our good works will point people to God. That should give me consideration whether or not my good works are really pointing others to Jesus. In the Pharisees case they wanted people to see them and their own 'holiness'. And I think they made converts but converts to their pious, religious ways that Jesus did not support.

I think many here in our culture also want to please others and will 'walk an isle' or 'say a sinner's prayer' or 'join a church' with motives other than turning their lives over to the Lord. And I have often had my uneasiness with some appeals to be saved. Getting a ticket for heaven for when you die is far different than acknowledging and repenting of our sins and being born again and having a whole new desire to follow Jesus.

I think there are weeds amongst the good crop and I have wondered at times about how far churches should go to weed them out when Jesus seemed to say to let them grow together until harvest time. How does this match up with Paul saying how to weed them out of the local church ? Well, perhaps that is a topic for a separate thread.

One more thing regarding preaching regarding hell - Jesus did preach about hell but why didn't the apostles, according to what is written in the Bible, pick up on the hell issue in their evangelism but rather were focused on our current sinning and making Jesus our Lord and Saviour ? Under the New Covenant when the Holy Spirit was first poured out on the church, why were the sermons not 'hellfire endless torment' sermons rather than focused on forgiveness and living a new life with the Holy Spirit in us as our guide ? When I have brought this up with others I have been challenged with this verse out of the OT - Ezekiel 33:8&9 (KJV)

When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you shall surely die!’ and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. Nevertheless if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.

This text was interpreted and used on me as a youth to be very straight foward in warning people that their sins would send them to a hell of endless torment. I took from this that I should feel quite guilty if I was not warning people of hell and someday would account for that. So, this 'high pressure' evangelism was on me as well as it was on the sinner. I don't believe quite this way now but I thought I would share my background on what I was taught in an evangelistic focused church group.

[Neto]

....
I think there are weeds amongst the good crop and I have wondered at times about how far churches should go to weed them out when Jesus seemed to say to let them grow together until harvest time. How does this match up with Paul saying how to weed them out of the local church ? Well, perhaps that is a topic for a separate thread.
....

Jesus explains that parable to the disciples, that the field is the world (i.e., not his followers, His Body, the church). So he is saying that he will not bring punishment on the earth in a move of total judgement until "the harvest", the end of the world.

[Sudsy]

....
I think there are weeds amongst the good crop and I have wondered at times about how far churches should go to weed them out when Jesus seemed to say to let them grow together until harvest time. How does this match up with Paul saying how to weed them out of the local church ? Well, perhaps that is a topic for a separate thread.
....

Jesus explains that parable to the disciples, that the field is the world (i.e., not his followers, His Body, the church). So he is saying that he will not bring punishment on the earth in a move of total judgement until "the harvest", the end of the world.

OK, so the church should only deal with professing believers that are sinning in the church as Paul writes. But what about the weeds (the unsaved) growing up together with the wheat (the saved). This seems to indicate a closeness of the wheat with the weeds in where they live in this world. Perhaps a thought against being isolated from the weeds.

This article suggests - 'The servants want to help the farmer by uprooting the imposters, but they lack the sensitivity of the angelic harvesters. It’s not the job of the servants to make judgments about what is and isn’t actual wheat. Their job is to serve the farmer as He spreads the legitimate seed.' https://www.jesusfilm.org/blog/parable- ... e%20angels.

So, if that quote is correct, our job is not to try to uproot what we believe are the imposters in the world who may appear to be Christians because we can be mis-judging an imposter from the real Christians and in trying to do this we could be damaging God's Kingdom. Does that sound right to you ? What about 'by their fruits we shall know them' ? Isn't this saying we can judge others salvation ?

[Josh]

Paul certainly doesn’t teach we should pretend obvious unbelievers are believers. Instead he teaches us to excommunicate such a person.