Are the Turtles Beating us?

[temporal1]

By the same argument, maybe the Amish are doing evangelism just fine.

God, the Holy Spirit, determines outcomes.
This confounds human reasoning.

[Sudsy]

The end does not justify the means.

But God uses His imperfect children to achieve His purposes.

By the same argument, maybe the Amish are doing evangelism just fine.

If they are presenting the Gospel by which we are saved as Paul writes in 1 Cor 15, then whoever presents this Gospel is presenting the Gospel by which we are saved. It is the Gospel that saves us, not the messenger.

[Ernie]

The end does not justify the means.

But God uses His imperfect children to achieve His purposes.

True. I am imperfect and I am glad that God still uses me.
But just because God uses imperfect people does not mean that the end justifies the means.

[Sudsy]

The end does not justify the means.

But God uses His imperfect children to achieve His purposes.

True. I am imperfect and I am glad that God still uses me.
But just because God uses imperfect people does not mean that the end justifies the means.

What do think of those who come to Christ for salvation through hellfire preaching ? Some say that Jesus was a hellfire preacher yet I don't see the apostles picking up on this approach in their evangelism. My father was a hellfire, street preacher so I was raised that scare tactics was the means we should use to bring people to salvation. It was more being saved from an eternity in hellfire than it was being saved from the power of sin in one's life now and ultimately having a home in heaven. This scare approach was also used to try to keep me on 'the strait and narrow' as I might sin at any moment and end up in this hell. No assurance of my salvation as we were not OSAS believers. Was that means justifiable as some Christians live under such a threat ?

I have friends that say they heard a sermon that 'scared the hell out of them' regarding hell and they came to Christ to escape such a place. Jonathan Edwards and Charles Finney were two that used this means to frighten people into salvation. Why don't we read of the apostles using that means ? Any thoughts on this ? If the end results in people being saved, then doesn't the end justify the means ? These two evangelists I mentioned had many converts to Christ. Read Edwards sermon on 'Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God'.

When was the last time you heard such a sermon to evangelize someone ? I think some would say that is not a means that should be used and the means they use is more about God giving us the ability to overcome our sins and ultimately be with God forever when we die. More of a presentation of God's love than one of His judgment.

However, if the end results in people coming to Christ can we say that the means then is justified or not ?

[Ernie]

However, if the end results in people coming to Christ can we say that the means then is justified or not ?

For the third time, my answer is "not".

[Sudsy]

However, if the end results in people coming to Christ can we say that the means then is justified or not ?

For the third time, my answer is "not".

OK, I was just testing to see if it is always "not". Myself, I do not use the hellfire means in my evangelism but for many years I had, as this was the means I was raised to use. My understanding on eternal torment is not the belief I was raised in.

[barnhart]

However, if the end results in people coming to Christ can we say that the means then is justified or not ?

For the third time, my answer is "not".

OK, I was just testing to see if it is always "not". Myself, I do not use the hellfire means in my evangelism but for many years I had, as this was the means I was raised to use. My understanding on eternal torment is not the belief I was raised in.

I think of hell fire evangelism similarly to the therapeutic, your best life now gospel. Fruit can be found in both, but both also contain distorted views of God and what he wills to accomplish, so both also produce negative outcomes.

[Bootstrap]

However, if the end results in people coming to Christ can we say that the means then is justified or not ?

For the third time, my answer is "not".

I wonder if the Christ people meet through hellfire preaching looks like the Jesus Christ in the Bible, who did not preach that way.

[ken_sylvania]

However, if the end results in people coming to Christ can we say that the means then is justified or not ?

For the third time, my answer is "not".

I wonder if the Christ people meet through hellfire preaching looks like the Jesus Christ in the Bible, who did not preach that way.

He didn't?

Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

[Neto]

Please point to two encounters recorded in the Gospels in which you would say that Jesus dealt with someone in the same way. (I'm not saying that there definitely aren't any - I just cannot think of any.) My impression is that if he did indeed do that, the Gospel writers, at least, resisted or avoided recording anything like that, possibly to avoid the impression that Jesus gave a fool-proof formula for "preaching the Kingdom".

I have had people tell me that I was a major influence in their lives, to bring them to Christ (or more deeply), but I have never been able to say what I said or did that might have brought that about. Now in respect to a people group like the Banawa, it would be nonsense to use a high pressure approach like that used by many 'evangelists'. They would just do what you ask, and go away the exact same person in thought and action as they were before. One of the central values of the Banawa culture is to please anyone you can. Some individuals are like that too. (But I guess this is getting off topic.)