Miller Farms fined

[JohnHurt]

Raw milk and politics

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/ ... k-00145625

That is what this whole thing has been from the start.

Right

Politico is one of "ultimate spin doctors". The article they wrote tells you that only conservatives want raw milk, so it is a "far right" thing, then they tell you down in the article that Michele Obama drinks raw milk, and Whole Foods sold raw milk starting in 2000.

So there has been some sort of "change", and in the last 20 years drinking raw milk has become reactionary. Yeah, right. Who writes this stuff?

Having the right to choose the food you eat is not political, it is a right that all men have.

It is funny, but when I was young, the Democrats represented the common man, the Democratic party represented the "back to the land" farmers, all the hippies were Democrats fighting against the Establishment, and the Democrats were anti-war.

Now the Democrats represent the elites like Bill Gates and George Soros, their power base is city dwellers, the old hippies are all millionaires or homeless in Portland, the Democrats follow the Establishment line in everything like taking mRNA shots, and the Democrats are pro-war and want all of us to fight in Ukraine.

What ever happened to the anti-War - anti-Establishment Democratic party of the 1960's? Is Bernie Sanders the last true Democrat?

Where have all the Democrats gone, long time passing? Long time ago.
Wall Street picked them everyone.
Oh, when will they ever learn?

Regardless of your politics, people need the right to choose what goes into their bodies. Something to do with "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...".

[JohnHurt]

Why Amos Miller isn’t getting a permit

The answer to the judge’s question is pretty simple, from Miller’s perspective: the permit only solves part of his problem. He wants to sell much more than just raw milk and certain cheeses, including other products like “butter, soft-cheeses (Pennsylvania only permits hard cheeses), kefir and colostrum — the first substance produced by mammary glands after giving birth — because Pennsylvania doesn’t allow their sales.”

https://amishamerica.com/amos-miller-pe ... -raw-milk/

If Miller gets a permit then he comes under PDA jurisdiction and cannot sell his other dairy products. A permit won't fix the problem.

He is under state control if he likes it or not.

The Pennsylvania Dept of Agriculture is also under the control of the US Constitution if they like it or not.

[Judas Maccabeus]

If Miller gets a permit then he comes under PDA jurisdiction and cannot sell his other dairy products. A permit won't fix the problem.

He is under state control if he likes it or not.

The Pennsylvania Dept of Agriculture is also under the control of the US Constitution if they like it or not.

Every court ruling has supported this power for more than a hundred years. Get used to it, novel sovereign citizen arguments will lose 100% of the time.

[RZehr]

That is what this whole thing has been from the start.

Right

Politico is one of "ultimate spin doctors". The article they wrote tells you that only conservatives want raw milk, so it is a "far right" thing, then they tell you down in the article that Michele Obama drinks raw milk, and Whole Foods sold raw milk starting in 2000.

So there has been some sort of "change", and in the last 20 years drinking raw milk has become reactionary. Yeah, right. Who writes this stuff?

Having the right to choose the food you eat is not political, it is a right that all men have.

It is funny, but when I was young, the Democrats represented the common man, the Democratic party represented the "back to the land" farmers, all the hippies were Democrats fighting against the Establishment, and the Democrats were anti-war.

Now the Democrats represent the elites like Bill Gates and George Soros, their power base is city dwellers, the old hippies are all millionaires or homeless in Portland, the Democrats follow the Establishment line in everything like taking mRNA shots, and the Democrats are pro-war and want all of us to fight in Ukraine.

What ever happened to the anti-War - anti-Establishment Democratic party of the 1960's? Is Bernie Sanders the last true Democrat?

Where have all the Democrats gone, long time passing? Long time ago.
Wall Street picked them everyone.
Oh, when will they ever learn?

Regardless of your politics, people need the right to choose what goes into their bodies. Something to do with "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...".

You seem go on to agree and give examples of how politics have shifted on various matters. But you think raw milk didn't? Don't underestimate the ability for anything, even raw milk, to become a cultural flashpoint.

[Ken]

If Miller gets a permit then he comes under PDA jurisdiction and cannot sell his other dairy products. A permit won't fix the problem.

He is under state control if he likes it or not.

The Pennsylvania Dept of Agriculture is also under the control of the US Constitution if they like it or not.

The 10th Amendment to the Constitution states:

• "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

So unless regulation of raw milk is delegated to the Federal Government by the Constitution (it is not) or prohibited by the Constitution (it is not) then the power to do so falls to the state of Pennsylvania.

[JohnHurt]

He is under state control if he likes it or not.

The Pennsylvania Dept of Agriculture is also under the control of the US Constitution if they like it or not.

The 10th Amendment to the Constitution states:

• "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

So unless regulation of raw milk is delegated to the Federal Government by the Constitution (it is not) or prohibited by the Constitution (it is not) then the power to do so falls to the state of Pennsylvania.

That is great, Ken! I did not know you were a "Tenther." Welcome aboard!

Every court ruling has supported this power for more than a hundred years. Get used to it, novel sovereign citizen arguments will lose 100% of the time.

It looks like Judas is heading toward the Tenth Amendment too. That is great!

But there is one slight problem with the Tenther Movement:

Despite the movement's assertions, the Supreme Court has interpreted the Tenth Amendment such that the Amendment does not require a narrow interpretation of the federal government's enumerated powers. Instead, the Court holds that the powers of the federal government derive from the states voluntarily surrendering part of their sovereign powers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenther_movement

And here is another problem:

Article I, Section 8, Clause 3:[5]

[The Congress shall have Power] To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

It looks like the Federal Government may have jurisdiction over interstate commerce, like raw milk that passes over State lines. So the PDA loses to the US Constitution on regulating Miller's sales that involve interstate commerce.

And, it looks like the activities of a "Private Membership Association" is also outside the State's jurisdiction, as long as there is no clear and present danger:

Generally, those in a private membership association are not under the jurisdiction of the state, local, and federal governments’ laws and regulations, the exception being, when a private membership associates’ activities present a clear and present danger.

Origins and Powers

Even during intense litigation the court consistently upheld the status of the private membership association, consequently making it a cornerstone of legal arguments used by the civil rights movement. Though the Constitution does not specifically enshrine private membership associations, the Supreme Court describes the right and power to associate, including under private membership association, as equal to free speech.

Application Varieties

The use for private membership associations has been to shield organization or practitioners from legal scrutiny. In regards to alternative medicine and healthcare private membership associations have opted to induct their patients into the organization to streamline care and get around prohibitive and costly regulation. Under the First and Fourteenth Amendment and equivalent State Constitution provisions, private membership association such as independent alternative medical practitioners can offer me members (patients) benefits and services without the scrutiny of State and Federal agencies.

Legal Foundation and Private Contracting

Private association rights are not just limited to political or social activities, and it can be used by for business purpose like the sale of alcohol. Private membership associations retain the right to privately contract under the 5th privately and 14th Amendments establishing binding partnerships for goods and services. Under these circumstances as long as a private membership association has proper documentation they can transact in goods and services that may be regulated by the state and federal government. Private membership associations are still afforded all the rights and freedoms of an American citizen including the right to due process, should state official make inquiries into their operation and organization.
https://www.proadvocate.org/knowing-rig ... ociations/

The only exception is if Miller's activities present a clear and present danger to his Private Membership Association. Since none of Miller's customers, or "private members in Miller's association" have complained, and the two people that were supposedly injured by Miller were never his customers or died from cancer and not Listeria, I think the PDA may have a problem with establishing a "Clear and Present Danger".

(Actually, the only thing the PDA "established" is that they committed perjury, in a court of law. Let's see how that turns out for them.)

Also, under the 14th Amendment, Miller will be denied Equal Protection Under the Law, if the PDA exerts its jurisdiction over just Miller's Private Membership Association (PMA) without doing the same to every other PMA. So every PMA would have to be under the State, otherwise the law is not being applied equally. And that violates the Supreme Court, as they "think" that PMAs are associated with Free Speech under the 1st Amendment.

If they can beat Miller, then every PMA can be invaded by State governments, and this will be a huge increase in government intrusion into our lives.

For example, Gateway Christian School in Memphis TN is used by just about every homeschooler in TN to process their paperwork for the State, and keep the State Education bureaucrats out of our right to privately homeschool our kids. The Miller case can affect this type of Private membership association.

The State of TN has since cracked down this last year on Gateway, and is demanding truancy reports or something like that from every homeschooler using Gateway. My wife said this is a ridiculous increase in arbitrary State power.

But there is one solution to every government intrusion, and that is total non-compliance.

My daughter in law's family never gave their kids SSNs, or registered their kids for any school, even homeschool. But they were taught at home better than just about anyone. When they turned 18, they took the GED and passed it. So they never needed anything from the State. They were totally outside the system.

The father believed that he should "make no covenants with them", and it really worked out well for them. Deut 7:2

We homeschooled 6 kids using Gateway instead of directly working with the State bureaucrats, and my wife said, seriously, that staying outside the education system and getting a GED was probably better than what we did with our kids.

It may come to that with raw milk.

I see the day in the future where I am standing in an alley, wearing a trench coat, which I open to disclose 4 glass bottles, and I say "Pssst - Hey, you want to buy some raw milk?" Then I am being chased by the police, with the bottles clinking in my pants, back to my clandestine "farm" hidden in a waste dump, where I have a miniature cow made up to look like a junkyard dog.

Alright buddy, the jig is up. Give us the milk, the cow, and tell us who else is drinking this "stuff".

Yep, in the future, you can't have raw milk, but you can have all of the Soma drugs you want. Brave New World Order.

[Ernie]

Yep, in the future, you can't have raw milk,

Anyone can consume and buy as much raw milk as they want. They just need to procure it in a legal manner, which is not hard to do at all.

[Ken]

The Pennsylvania Dept of Agriculture is also under the control of the US Constitution if they like it or not.

The 10th Amendment to the Constitution states:

• "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

So unless regulation of raw milk is delegated to the Federal Government by the Constitution (it is not) or prohibited by the Constitution (it is not) then the power to do so falls to the state of Pennsylvania.

That is great, Ken! I did not know you were a "Tenther." Welcome aboard!

Every court ruling has supported this power for more than a hundred years. Get used to it, novel sovereign citizen arguments will lose 100% of the time.

It looks like Judas is heading toward the Tenth Amendment too. That is great!

But there is one slight problem with the Tenther Movement:

Despite the movement's assertions, the Supreme Court has interpreted the Tenth Amendment such that the Amendment does not require a narrow interpretation of the federal government's enumerated powers. Instead, the Court holds that the powers of the federal government derive from the states voluntarily surrendering part of their sovereign powers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenther_movement

And here is another problem:

Article I, Section 8, Clause 3:[5]

[The Congress shall have Power] To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

It looks like the Federal Government may have jurisdiction over interstate commerce, like raw milk that passes over State lines. So the PDA loses to the US Constitution on regulating Miller's sales that involve interstate commerce.

And, it looks like the activities of a "Private Membership Association" is also outside the State's jurisdiction, as long as there is no clear and present danger:

Generally, those in a private membership association are not under the jurisdiction of the state, local, and federal governments’ laws and regulations, the exception being, when a private membership associates’ activities present a clear and present danger.

Origins and Powers

Even during intense litigation the court consistently upheld the status of the private membership association, consequently making it a cornerstone of legal arguments used by the civil rights movement. Though the Constitution does not specifically enshrine private membership associations, the Supreme Court describes the right and power to associate, including under private membership association, as equal to free speech.

Application Varieties

The use for private membership associations has been to shield organization or practitioners from legal scrutiny. In regards to alternative medicine and healthcare private membership associations have opted to induct their patients into the organization to streamline care and get around prohibitive and costly regulation. Under the First and Fourteenth Amendment and equivalent State Constitution provisions, private membership association such as independent alternative medical practitioners can offer me members (patients) benefits and services without the scrutiny of State and Federal agencies.

Legal Foundation and Private Contracting

Private association rights are not just limited to political or social activities, and it can be used by for business purpose like the sale of alcohol. Private membership associations retain the right to privately contract under the 5th privately and 14th Amendments establishing binding partnerships for goods and services. Under these circumstances as long as a private membership association has proper documentation they can transact in goods and services that may be regulated by the state and federal government. Private membership associations are still afforded all the rights and freedoms of an American citizen including the right to due process, should state official make inquiries into their operation and organization.
https://www.proadvocate.org/knowing-rig ... ociations/

The only exception is if Miller's activities present a clear and present danger to his Private Membership Association. Since none of Miller's customers, or "private members in Miller's association" have complained, and the two people that were supposedly injured by Miller were never his customers or died from cancer and not Listeria, I think the PDA may have a problem with establishing a "Clear and Present Danger".

(Actually, the only thing the PDA "established" is that they committed perjury, in a court of law. Let's see how that turns out for them.)

Also, under the 14th Amendment, Miller will be denied Equal Protection Under the Law, if the PDA exerts its jurisdiction over just Miller's Private Membership Association (PMA) without doing the same to every other PMA. So every PMA would have to be under the State, otherwise the law is not being applied equally. And that violates the Supreme Court, as they "think" that PMAs are associated with Free Speech under the 1st Amendment.

If they can beat Miller, then every PMA can be invaded by State governments, and this will be a huge increase in government intrusion into our lives.

For example, Gateway Christian School in Memphis TN is used by just about every homeschooler in TN to process their paperwork for the State, and keep the State Education bureaucrats out of our right to privately homeschool our kids. The Miller case can affect this type of Private membership association.

The State of TN has since cracked down this last year on Gateway, and is demanding truancy reports or something like that from every homeschooler using Gateway. My wife said this is a ridiculous increase in arbitrary State power.

But there is one solution to every government intrusion, and that is total non-compliance.

My daughter in law's family never gave their kids SSNs, or registered their kids for any school, even homeschool. But they were taught at home better than just about anyone. When they turned 18, they took the GED and passed it. So they never needed anything from the State. They were totally outside the system.

The father believed that he should "make no covenants with them", and it really worked out well for them. Deut 7:2

We homeschooled 6 kids using Gateway instead of directly working with the State bureaucrats, and my wife said, seriously, that staying outside the education system and getting a GED was probably better than what we did with our kids.

It may come to that with raw milk.

I see the day in the future where I am standing in an alley, wearing a trench coat, which I open to disclose 4 glass bottles, and I say "Pssst - Hey, you want to buy some raw milk?" Then I am being chased by the police, with the bottles clinking in my pants, back to my clandestine "farm" hidden in a waste dump, where I have a miniature cow made up to look like a junkyard dog.

Alright buddy, the jig is up. Give us the milk, the cow, and tell us who else is drinking this "stuff".

Yep, in the future, you can't have raw milk, but you can have all of the Soma drugs you want. Brave New World Order.

Seriously John:

If you want to argue that: (1) States don't have jurisdiction to regulate food safety and that (2) the Federal government doesn't have authority to regulate interstate commerce as well as the health and welfare of Americans, then go for it.

But don't be surprised if no one takes you seriously.

And PS, there are thousands of places you can buy raw milk in this country legally. The raw milk supply won't be dented if Miller decides to blow up his business instead of allowing state inspections.

[Josh]

Yep, in the future, you can't have raw milk,

Anyone can consume and buy as much raw milk as they want. They just need to procure it in a legal manner, which is not hard to do at all.

Except the FDA has said one of their highest priorities is to get people to stop drinking raw milk through any means possible:

https://web.archive.org/web/20030430182 ... -03-4.html

In deciding upon mandatory pasteurization, FDA determined that pasteurization was the only means to assure the destruction of pathogenic microorganisms that might be present. This decision was science-based involving epidemiological evidence. FDA and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in Atlanta have documented illnesses associated with the consumption of raw milk, including "certified raw milk" and have stated that the risks of consuming raw milk far outweigh any benefits.

In light of research showing no meaningful difference in the nutritional value of pasteurized and unpasteurized milk, FDA and CDC have also concluded that the health risks associated with the consumption of raw milk far outweigh any benefits derived from its consumption.

The FDA already decided quite a while ago that they want to do everything they can to outlaw buying and selling raw milk. The only reason we can get it at all is because they don't quite have universal jurisdiction. The only way to maintain access to raw milk is to continue legal and other pressure to push back on the FDA.

The representative for the state in Miller's latest trial asserted that the state even had a right to regulate and control a family growing food or milking their own cows for their own consumption. She maintained the state's power to regulate this is is absolute. I think this is beyond the pale - I think a human being has a fundamental human right to choose to grow their own food or milk their own cow, if they are able to do so, and consume the food in any way they please, without government interference.

[Ken]

Yep, in the future, you can't have raw milk,

Anyone can consume and buy as much raw milk as they want. They just need to procure it in a legal manner, which is not hard to do at all.

Except the FDA has said one of their highest priorities is to get people to stop drinking raw milk through any means possible:

https://web.archive.org/web/20030430182 ... -03-4.html

In deciding upon mandatory pasteurization, FDA determined that pasteurization was the only means to assure the destruction of pathogenic microorganisms that might be present. This decision was science-based involving epidemiological evidence. FDA and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in Atlanta have documented illnesses associated with the consumption of raw milk, including "certified raw milk" and have stated that the risks of consuming raw milk far outweigh any benefits.

In light of research showing no meaningful difference in the nutritional value of pasteurized and unpasteurized milk, FDA and CDC have also concluded that the health risks associated with the consumption of raw milk far outweigh any benefits derived from its consumption.

The FDA already decided quite a while ago that they want to do everything they can to outlaw buying and selling raw milk. The only reason we can get it at all is because they don't quite have universal jurisdiction. The only way to maintain access to raw milk is to continue legal and other pressure to push back on the FDA.

The representative for the state in Miller's latest trial asserted that the state even had a right to regulate and control a family growing food or milking their own cows for their own consumption. She maintained the state's power to regulate this is is absolute. I think this is beyond the pale - I think a human being has a fundamental human right to choose to grow their own food or milk their own cow, if they are able to do so, and consume the food in any way they please, without government interference.

You are citing a 21 year old FDA document from the first term of the George W Bush Administration to make your argument about FDA policy being against raw milk?

The fact of the matter is that there are raw milk producers all over the place in this country. And where they are lacking it is entirely due to state regulations, not the FDA. Here in Washington it is perfectly legal to sell raw milk provided that it is properly labeled and the producer is licensed (which means they are subject to inspections and regulation). In fact, the produce grocery store I pass by every day on the way to work has raw milk and raw milk products. And they also have raw goat milk: https://chucksproduce.com/ The FDA isn't curtailing it or intervening.