The cape dress: Its origins and evolution over the ages

[Ken]

Thanks. I don't see anything about my first question. Did you answer it in here somewhere that I don't see?

A couple posts upstream I wrote the following. Does it address your first question?

I think it is fine for people to wear whatever they want. Whether it is conservative Swiss/German Anabaptists, Guatemalan Mayans, or my daughters. Nothing I have written here can be taken any other way. I think the world is a more interesting place when there is diversity of culture and traditions.

I do object to the notion that conforming to and enforcing one particular style of dress or costume over another is more Christian or Biblical. That is all.

[Sudsy]

My church doesn’t have a written dress code but in practice everyone wears a fairly uniform style of clothing, essentially what was commonplace in the 1930s, but minus the hats and ties. Most women who join our church eventually learn stress making and enjoy sewing dresses and picking out fabric prints.

I've never been to a church that actually teaches stress making as it doesn't appear to need teaching.

[mike]

My church doesn’t have a written dress code but in practice everyone wears a fairly uniform style of clothing, essentially what was commonplace in the 1930s, but minus the hats and ties. Most women who join our church eventually learn stress making and enjoy sewing dresses and picking out fabric prints.

I've never been to a church that actually teaches stress making as it doesn't appear to need teaching.

Sudsy is going all OJ on us!

[RZehr]

Thanks. I don't see anything about my first question. Did you answer it in here somewhere that I don't see?

A couple posts upstream I wrote the following. Does it address your first question?

I think it is fine for people to wear whatever they want. Whether it is conservative Swiss/German Anabaptists, Guatemalan Mayans, or my daughters. Nothing I have written here can be taken any other way. I think the world is a more interesting place when there is diversity of culture and traditions.

I do object to the notion that conforming to and enforcing one particular style of dress or costume over another is more Christian or Biblical. That is all.

Yes, thanks.

[RZehr]

My church doesn’t have a written dress code but in practice everyone wears a fairly uniform style of clothing, essentially what was commonplace in the 1930s, but minus the hats and ties. Most women who join our church eventually learn stress making and enjoy sewing dresses and picking out fabric prints.

In some households buying fabric and stress making are inextricably linked.

[Ernie]

I do object to the notion that conforming to and enforcing one particular style of dress or costume over another is more Christian or Biblical. That is all.

I don't know of anyone on MN who is trying to make a case for this. Do you know of anyone?

The only thing that I know anybody is trying to make a case for is the privilege of a person or a church or a group of churches to continue wearing something similar to what they've always worn, rather than feel pressure from folks like Ken and Sudsy to adjust their clothing to whatever the majority of society happens to be practicing in any particular era.

[Ken]

I do object to the notion that conforming to and enforcing one particular style of dress or costume over another is more Christian or Biblical. That is all.

I don't know of anyone on MN who is trying to make a case for this. Do you know of anyone?

The only thing that I know anybody is trying to make a case for is the privilege of a person or a church or a group of churches to continue wearing something similar to what they've always worn, rather than feel pressure from folks like Ken and Sudsy to adjust their clothing to whatever the majority of society happens to be practicing in any particular era.

I don't know about Mennonet.

But in my lived experience that most certainly happens as I relayed upstream in the story about my grandfather.

And I expect that this is exactly what many young women are being taught in many churches around the country.

If you read what I write, I object to pressures on young women in BOTH directions, from society and sometimes from church.

I object to the pressures of fashion that young women experience in society (and it is mostly young women). I see it with my own daughters and my wife and we try to teach them to resist the whims of fashion, especially when inappropriate. And they generally do so in ways that make us proud.

I also have reservations about conservative churches that focus on conformity of dress. Let me be clear. It isn't the actual dress I object to. I have absolutely on problem with cape dresses or any other kind of dress. It is the message that both outward appearance and conformity are important Biblical values. They are not. Dress is barely mentioned in the Bible and not at all by Jesus. And conformity to rigid standards of appearance is not addressed anywhere. I think we are sending young women the wrong message when we obsess about what they wear and nit-pick their appearance. Especially compared to what is inside. Teaching is a zero-sum game in many ways. If you are a church, you only have so much attention span from your young people. Choose wisely when you decide what to focus on and what values you wish to impart. As I relayed above, my grandfather did not choose wisely and as a consequence, most of his female grandchildren do not remember him fondly, nor did they learn anything from him other than his own specific version of puritanism. Because that is all he ever shared with them.

[Neto]

I do object to the notion that conforming to and enforcing one particular style of dress or costume over another is more Christian or Biblical. That is all.

I don't know of anyone on MN who is trying to make a case for this. Do you know of anyone?

The only thing that I know anybody is trying to make a case for is the privilege of a person or a church or a group of churches to continue wearing something similar to what they've always worn, rather than feel pressure from folks like Ken and Sudsy to adjust their clothing to whatever the majority of society happens to be practicing in any particular era.

And, you will soon run off of the rails trying to "go with the flow", because who determines what the 'majority' is wearing? Majority of your peers? Majority of those in your close associates? If that's the deal, then these congregations are doing exactly that. (Also, you will be spending a lot of 'dough' updating your wardrobe every little while.)

Someone mentioned overalls earlier in this discussion. I grew up wearing them, both of my grandfathers did, and I still do (although my wife doesn't really like if I go to certain places wearing them). For my one grandpa, the only time I ever saw him in anything BUT overalls was going to church. All year around, overalls and a long sleeve flannel shirt. For shirts, for some reason I just like certain types of plaid better than anything else. Someone (here in Holmes County) once told me "Oh yeah, you're Russian Mennonite - that's why you always wear plaids." Well, if that's the reason, it's fine with me.

[Ernie]

I do object to the notion that conforming to and enforcing one particular style of dress or costume over another is more Christian or Biblical. That is all.

I don't know of anyone on MN who is trying to make a case for this. Do you know of anyone?

I don't know about Mennonet.

Ok. It seemed to me that you didn't know of anyone so now we are in agreement on that point.

I see it with my own daughters and my wife and we try to teach them to resist the whims of fashion, especially when inappropriate.

Why would you tell your daughters this sort of thing if dress is not mentioned by Jesus?
A can a church do the same sort of teaching that you and your wife do, or are parents the only one's that are allowed to do this?

I also have reservations about conservative churches that focus on conformity of dress. Let me be clear. It isn't the actual dress I object to. I have absolutely on problem with cape dresses or any other kind of dress. It is the message that both outward appearance and conformity are important Biblical values. They are not.

We live around lots of people who share the same conclusions, so at least you have lots of company.

I think we are sending young women the wrong message when we obsess about what they wear and nit-pick their appearance. Especially compared to what is inside.

I agree. And I am not aware of anyone on Mennonet who disagrees with you. In fact, I don't know of any Christians in the world who think we should obsess about what people wear and nit-pick their appearance and disregard what is on this inside. So I am not sure who you are addressing. Who is the audience that you are trying to enlighten?

[Ernie]

Joining an Anabaptist church is a voluntary thing. In most cases, people know what they are agreeing to before they join the church. I don't have any problem with a church expecting people to do what they agreed to do.

I find it interesting that churches all over the world can decide to build a bigger building, and anyone who joins the church once that decision is made, understands the plans that are being made and joins accordingly. Is this an important biblical value?

A church can agree to hire a certain pastor, and anyone who joins the church once that decision is made, joins with the understanding that this man will be the pastor. Is this an important biblical value?

A church can agree that members should not use cocaine, and anyone who joins the church once that decision is made, joins with the understanding that cocaine is not something Christians should be doing. Is this an important biblical value?

But if a church agrees to wear certain clothing, this is not ok because "outward appearance and conformity are not important Biblical values".