Evidence for Evolution

General Christian Theology
Ken
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Re: Evidence for Evolution

Post by Ken »

GaryK wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:18 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 4:36 pm
A chihuahua and a great dane cannot breed together naturally. It is physically impossible. If they were both wild species adapted to different environments they would meet every test to be considered separate species.
Would it be possible for a female great dane to get pregnant by a male chihuahua through artificial insemination?
Probably. But inter-species cross breeding through artificial insemination is often possible between two closely related species. There are lots of examples of this happening.

Sometimes it does produce sterile offspring as in the case of mules (horse and donkey cross) but that isn't some criteria for distinguishing between different species. There are hundreds of examples of inter-species hybrids that may or may not be fertile. Often it is geographic, habitat, or behavioral differences that prevent species from commonly cross-breeding in nature. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genetic_hybrids

For example, a lion and tiger hybrid cross is known as a Liger (or sometimes a Hercules). They can produce fertile offspring. But these sorts of crosses never occur in nature because the two species are geographically separated on two different continents and do not ever encounter each other in nature. And even if they did, it isn't necessarily the case that their natural mating habits would be compatible. And no one argues that lions and tigers are the same species.

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Last edited by Ken on Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Soloist

Re: Evidence for Evolution

Post by Soloist »

Its a fake! You can see the stuffing!
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GaryK

Re: Evidence for Evolution

Post by GaryK »

Ken wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:18 pm
GaryK wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:18 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 4:36 pm
A chihuahua and a great dane cannot breed together naturally. It is physically impossible. If they were both wild species adapted to different environments they would meet every test to be considered separate species.
Would it be possible for a female great dane to get pregnant by a male chihuahua through artificial insemination?
Probably. But inter-species cross breeding through artificial insemination is often possible between two closely related species. There are lots of examples of this happening.
Do you think a great dane could ever evolve into something that could not reproduce with a chihuahua?
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Evidence for Evolution

Post by Ken »

Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:28 pm Its a fake! You can see the stuffing!
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Soloist

Re: Evidence for Evolution

Post by Soloist »

Ken wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:40 pm
Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:28 pm Its a fake! You can see the stuffing!
Its that fake AI vid tech! We had it in the 60s from crashed lunar aliens.
That’s how we faked the landing too!
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Evidence for Evolution

Post by Ken »

GaryK wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:32 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:18 pm
GaryK wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:18 pm

Would it be possible for a female great dane to get pregnant by a male chihuahua through artificial insemination?
Probably. But inter-species cross breeding through artificial insemination is often possible between two closely related species. There are lots of examples of this happening.
Do you think a great dane could ever evolve into something that could not reproduce with a chihuahua?
Sure, with enough time. Sterile offspring are the result of too many chromosomal differences and that would take a long time to develop through natural mutations and evolution.

But evolution can be both divergent or convergent. So if chihuahuas and great danes were both released into the wild and developed into separate self-sustaining populations two different things could occur.

1. We could see divergent evolution where both "subspecies" specialize differently over time and diverge into two more dramatically different species. If, for example, chihuahuas specialize in catching small burrowing prey like mice or chipmunks where being small is an advantage. And great danes specialize in bringing down large prey like deer or elk or moose where being large and heavy is an advantage. Then over time you'd expect them to further diverge, (or)

2. We could see convergent evolution if both species converge into a more similar and natural form of wild dog and shed some of the more artificial human-bred traits that were imparted by selective breeding but don't provide advantages in the wild. So, for example, chihuahuas could develop into a larger wild dog species over time and great danes could develop into a smaller wild dog species over time if there is some ideal body size for wild canines (as is probably the case) that will be more like the size of coyotes. A coyote might be the ideal medium sized canine for hunting a wide variety of prey and might have the best body type for canine survival in a diversity of habitats in the wild.

Just off the top of my head, I would guess that the most likely scenario is probably #2 since most of the unique traits of both chihuahuas and great danes are put there by humans and don't necessarily confer any advantage in the wild. But that doesn't mean they wouldn't continue to diverge genetically if the two different populations remained geographically isolated for a long time. They would through natural genetic drift. So if they remained isolated you could end up with natural ancestors of both chihuahuas and great danes that look much more similar to each other but that have greater genetic difference than today.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
ken_sylvania

Re: Evidence for Evolution

Post by ken_sylvania »

GaryK wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:32 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:18 pm
GaryK wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:18 pm

Would it be possible for a female great dane to get pregnant by a male chihuahua through artificial insemination?
Probably. But inter-species cross breeding through artificial insemination is often possible between two closely related species. There are lots of examples of this happening.
Do you think a great dane could ever evolve into something that could not reproduce with a chihuahua?
Could it ever involve into an into a creature that could sin? Or that has a soul and that could live eternally?
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: Evidence for Evolution

Post by Ken »

ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:10 pm
GaryK wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:32 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:18 pm

Probably. But inter-species cross breeding through artificial insemination is often possible between two closely related species. There are lots of examples of this happening.
Do you think a great dane could ever evolve into something that could not reproduce with a chihuahua?
Could it ever involve into an into a creature that could sin? Or that has a soul and that could live eternally?
So you don't believe in dog heaven?" :lol:

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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
ken_sylvania

Re: Evidence for Evolution

Post by ken_sylvania »

Ken wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:25 pm
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:10 pm
GaryK wrote: ↑Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:32 pm
Do you think a great dane could ever evolve into something that could not reproduce with a chihuahua?
Could it ever involve into an into a creature that could sin? Or that has a soul and that could live eternally?
So you don't believe in dog heaven?" :lol:
I don't. And I am truly curious how anyone can reconcile the theory of evolution from a common ancestor with what the Bible says about the soul, sin, forgiveness, redemption, and the new birth.
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Josh

Re: Evidence for Evolution

Post by Josh »

I’d like to know how I could evolve wings and fly. This would be a really handy skill for my grandchildren.
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