That’s not the same as deducting tuition. And yes, a church can support multiple schools are vice versus.
Deducting donations to a church is not a “gray area”.
Oh, but what if my church holds special meetings and provides lunch for all attendees? Do the receipts for the donations given in the offering that morning need to include a note saying that a meal worth $11.47 was provided?
The IRS standard is $50. If the benefit received is less than $50 then the IRS considers it of "insubstantial value" and is not required to be reported: See the IRS guidelines on this topic here: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/rp_1990-12.pdf
So if you hold a fundraising dinner where the value of the dinner exceeds $50/plate then you would need to report it on the donation receipts. That would be a pretty fancy dinner. Maybe something that would happen for something like a Museum or Symphony fundraising gala with a fancy catered dinner. But not a typical Mennonite Church.
None of affects or restricts how a church operates in any way, or how members can contribute. It is only about how wealthy people need to document contributions for which they are claiming an itemized tax deduction. If you aren't doing that you have no need for a receipt in the first place.
A meal out for a family of equivalent quality and service to one of our typical church suppers would cost well north of $50.
But in any case, I think you miss the point. Meals are not being sold. They are provided to anyone who shows up. People also donate. The two are not connected.
RZehr wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 10:40 am
If there is a tuition, then it is a “gray area” or not legal to deduct. But in our school, the school is not an entity at all. There is no way to pay the school at all. The school has no benefactors at all either. If someone wants to support the school, he can’t. The school is a function of the church, and the only way to support the school, is through the free will offerings to the church. Not a penny is required to attend the school, any more than it costs someone to attend the church service.
While it sounds like there are church schools that do not operate like this, our model is tax deductible. I gave money to the church and supported the school in that way for over ten years before I had children in school, and continue to give to the church, and plan to continue after my children are out of school. Tuition is not part of the conversation at all, either in 1999 nor will it be in 2039.
This is right. And you can talk about costs, even costs per student, you can't however have an "informal" tuition. Also...it needs to clearly be an accessible ministry to all members of the church. With no preclusions based on finances etc. Because of this, it doesn't work in some communities as some folks feel others are free loading, or that they are "paying more" than there "fair share." If folks have that mindset, they are right, it doesn't qualify as a church ministry.
In these models it is also true that people help support the school that don't even have kids...
I don't think legally, theoretically there would be a problem with charging tuition to those outside the church...fwiw.
Last edited by joshuabgood on Wed Nov 22, 2023 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don’t see the IRS involved here - this was an angry parent that went and complained to a TV station.
We would not know if the IRS was involved since audits and IRS enforcement actions are private and confidential. If you are audited for something you do the IRS doesn't run to the media to announce it. They are prohibited by law from doing that.
Actually, if an institution was subject to enforcement action we probably would know about it. The simple fact is that the IRS isn’t even focused on a couple bucks from improper deductions at some Catholic school which was doing it in violation of diocesan and USCCB policy.
It is the individual taxpayers who would be audited in this case, not the institution. And we would never know if that ever happened. And whether or not the deduction was allowed or disallowed unless someone challenged the IRS audit finding and took the whole thing to court in which case there would be a public record of the decision.
In any event, the fact that this sort of scheme violated USCCB policy should tell you something. Even though the IRS didn't weigh in, the Catholic Church itself thought the whole thing was shady.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
RZehr wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 10:40 am
If there is a tuition, then it is a “gray area” or not legal to deduct. But in our school, the school is not an entity at all. There is no way to pay the school at all. The school has no benefactors at all either. If someone wants to support the school, he can’t. The school is a function of the church, and the only way to support the school, is through the free will offerings to the church. Not a penny is required to attend the school, any more than it costs someone to attend the church service.
While it sounds like there are church schools that do not operate like this, our model is tax deductible. I gave money to the church and supported the school in that way for over ten years before I had children in school, and continue to give to the church, and plan to continue after my children are out of school. Tuition is not part of the conversation at all, either in 1999 nor will it be in 2039.
This is right. And you can talk about costs, even costs per student, you can't however have an "informal" tuition. Also...it needs to clearly be an accessible ministry to all members of the church. With no preclusions based on finances etc. Because of this, it doesn't work in some communities as some folks feel others are free loading, or that they are "paying more" than there "fair share." If folks have that mindset, they are right, it doesn't qualify as a church ministry.
We would welcome someone who wanted to attend our school (and comply with guidelines; the main stipulation is no television in the home and that includes children can’t be exposed to tv shows to the point they would come to school and talk about it).
Of course, it is entirely reasonable to expect parents to support the school in non financial ways. Amongst our own membership we have our share of “free loaders”. And when people are excommunicated their children often keep attending for years.
The simple fact is most people don’t want to send their children to a school that expects a conservative Christian lifestyle at home.
We would not know if the IRS was involved since audits and IRS enforcement actions are private and confidential. If you are audited for something you do the IRS doesn't run to the media to announce it. They are prohibited by law from doing that.
Actually, if an institution was subject to enforcement action we probably would know about it. The simple fact is that the IRS isn’t even focused on a couple bucks from improper deductions at some Catholic school which was doing it in violation of diocesan and USCCB policy.
It is the individual taxpayers who would be audited in this case, not the institution. And we would never know if that ever happened. And whether or not the deduction was allowed or disallowed unless someone challenged the IRS audit finding and took the whole thing to court in which case there would be a public record of the decision.
In any event, the fact that this sort of scheme violated USCCB policy should tell you something. Even though the IRS didn't weigh in, the Catholic Church itself thought the whole thing was shady.
It’s an irrelevant story though since Mennonite churches generally don’t work that way.
If there is ever pressure to donate, it would usually be for the building fund to pay for loan payments for the church building. Which isn’t remotely a gray area.
That’s not the same as deducting tuition. And yes, a church can support multiple schools are vice versus.
Deducting donations to a church is not a “gray area”.
Oh, but what if my church holds special meetings and provides lunch for all attendees? Do the receipts for the donations given in the offering that morning need to include a note saying that a meal worth $11.47 was provided?
The IRS standard is $50. If the benefit received is less than $50 then the IRS considers it of "insubstantial value" and is not required to be reported: See the IRS guidelines on this topic here: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/rp_1990-12.pdf
So if you hold a fundraising dinner where the value of the dinner exceeds $50/plate then you would need to report it on the donation receipts. That would be a pretty fancy dinner. Maybe something that would happen for something like a Museum or Symphony fundraising gala with a fancy catered dinner. But not a typical Mennonite Church.
None of affects or restricts how a church operates in any way, or how members can contribute. It is only about how wealthy people need to document contributions for which they are claiming an itemized tax deduction. If you aren't doing that you have no need for a receipt in the first place.
The policy you linked to says a value of 2% of the amount of the donation or $50, whichever is less. It also says value of all items received must be aggregated for the year. Five meals over the course of a year at $11.47/ea would be greater than $50.
But as mentioned before, this only becomes an issue where the benefit received is contingent on the donation being made. Because the lunch is provided for free to everyone regardless of whether they donated in the morning offering, there is no quid pro quo.
RZehr wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 10:40 am
If there is a tuition, then it is a “gray area” or not legal to deduct. But in our school, the school is not an entity at all. There is no way to pay the school at all. The school has no benefactors at all either. If someone wants to support the school, he can’t. The school is a function of the church, and the only way to support the school, is through the free will offerings to the church. Not a penny is required to attend the school, any more than it costs someone to attend the church service.
While it sounds like there are church schools that do not operate like this, our model is tax deductible. I gave money to the church and supported the school in that way for over ten years before I had children in school, and continue to give to the church, and plan to continue after my children are out of school. Tuition is not part of the conversation at all, either in 1999 nor will it be in 2039.
This is right. And you can talk about costs, even costs per student, you can't however have an "informal" tuition. Also...it needs to clearly be an accessible ministry to all members of the church. With no preclusions based on finances etc. Because of this, it doesn't work in some communities as some folks feel others are free loading, or that they are "paying more" than there "fair share." If folks have that mindset, they are right, it doesn't qualify as a church ministry.
In these models it is also true that people help support the school that don't even have kids...
I don't think legally, theoretically there would be a problem with charging tuition to those outside the church...fwiw.
Imagine a Mennonite church fundraiser which had you show some kind of donation receipt before you could get in line to get whatever food is being served. "Sorry, but you only donated $10.00, so you only get this cup of stale coffee in a styrofoam cup with creamers that date back to the Bush adminstration."
Josh wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 3:49 pm
Imagine a Mennonite church fundraiser which had you show some kind of donation receipt before you could get in line to get whatever food is being served. "Sorry, but you only donated $10.00, so you only get this cup of stale coffee in a styrofoam cup with creamers that date back to the Bush adminstration."
It doesn't work like that. It is the opposite of that. No one needs receipts to do anything. Certainly not to participate in a church potluck. The only purpose and point of a donation receipt is so you have a piece of paper to prove you made the donation in the event are rich and trying to itemize and deduct it from your taxes. Ordinary Christians who are not rich have no need of such things. The standard deduction goes up to $29,200 next year which means your itemized deductions have to exceed that amount for there to be any point in keeping receipts in the first place.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh wrote: ↑Wed Nov 22, 2023 3:49 pm
Imagine a Mennonite church fundraiser which had you show some kind of donation receipt before you could get in line to get whatever food is being served. "Sorry, but you only donated $10.00, so you only get this cup of stale coffee in a styrofoam cup with creamers that date back to the Bush adminstration."
It doesn't work like that. It is the opposite of that. No one needs receipts to do anything. Certainly not to participate in a church potluck. The only purpose and point of a donation receipt is so you have a piece of paper to prove you made the donation in the event are rich and trying to itemize and deduct it from your taxes. Ordinary Christians who are not rich have no need of such things. The standard deduction goes up to $29,200 next year which means your itemized deductions have to exceed that amount for there to be any point in keeping receipts in the first place.
Except you've made a big deal that people shouldn't be deducting the value of meals, school tuition, and presumably the value of toilet paper in the loos, "rental fees" for use of the hymnals for an hour, and on and on. So which is it? Do they need to mark down the value of their charitable contribution by the $1.65 a cup of burnt coffee was worth, or not?
