Major attack on Israel by Hamas

[MaxPC]

It seems like a pretty small chance of success for the West to persuade Israel to adopt a cease-fire or some carefully pre-prepared peace plan while they are probably still reacting out of anger against what happened on Oct. 7.

Hamas Terrorist: We Shot Crying Children ‘Until We Didn’t Hear Noise Anymore’

Interesting that he says that his parents didn't know that he had joined Hamas, and that if his father knew what he did to the Israeli children, his own father would kill him for that.

I know. Which really makes me wonder if Hamas ACTUALLY has popular support, as reported, or whether that isn't really the case. Where, though, is the outrage from the Palestinians who don't support Hamas, or from the broader Muslim world, toward atrocities done by Hamas? Or do they just wring their hands and see that sort of terrorism as inevitable due to Israel's perceived injustices and oppression? It seems to me that as long as Hamas receives popular support from the Palestinians, the Muslim world, and even some in the West, Israel will have zero success in stamping them out. They will just pop up somewhere else than Gaza and promote their cause there. Until Hamas is an international pariah, they will survive this. Maybe they will even benefit from it, and maybe that was the whole idea of the Oct. 7 attack.

Agreed. I recall the post WWII hunt for Nazis/Gestapo who had fled to South America. The concern was that they would regroup and rebuild. They were found but rumors still persist that not all were located. I doubt any are still alive at this point.

[Josh]

The latest bombing was in front of a hospital which hit several ambulances. This conduct is not reasonable and is costing Israel rather largely in the public relations department - which is rather important. As Russia learned, before conducting an “internal military operation”, if you’ve lost the support of much of the rest of the world, you are going to face big problems.

I don’t see why bombing hospitals and ambulances is necessary.

[MaxPC]

Hamas is hoarding vast amounts of fuel as Gaza hospitals run low, U.S. officials say

As U.N. officials say hospitals in Gaza are running dangerously low on fuel, Hamas is maintaining a stockpile of more than 200,000 gallons of fuel for the rockets it fires into Israel and the generators that provide clean air and electricity to its network of underground tunnels.

[Josh]

Hamas is hoarding vast amounts of fuel as Gaza hospitals run low, U.S. officials say

As U.N. officials say hospitals in Gaza are running dangerously low on fuel, Hamas is maintaining a stockpile of more than 200,000 gallons of fuel for the rockets it fires into Israel and the generators that provide clean air and electricity to its network of underground tunnels.

Qassam rockets are not made with diesel fuel nor gasoline.

Now a Catholic Church and an Orthodox Church have been bombed. I don’t think bombing hospitals, churches, and ambulances really helps accomplish any strategic objectives. It would seem to me the Israelis should be much more focused on bombing the tunnels or otherwise getting rid of them.

[MaxPC]

As U.N. officials say hospitals in Gaza are running dangerously low on fuel, Hamas is maintaining a stockpile of more than 200,000 gallons of fuel for the rockets it fires into Israel and the generators that provide clean air and electricity to its network of underground tunnels.

Qassam rockets are not made with diesel fuel nor gasoline.

Now a Catholic Church and an Orthodox Church have been bombed. I don’t think bombing hospitals, churches, and ambulances really helps accomplish any strategic objectives. It would seem to me the Israelis should be much more focused on bombing the tunnels or otherwise getting rid of them.

When those tunnels run under churches? Hospitals? No matter how advanced the weaponry, there is still the possibility of a miss. Whether one likes to hear it or not, if one does not want casualties one should not start a war as Iran has, via Hamas and Hezbollah.

Not all of the rockets are Qassam. They have those made in North Korea. Generators for the tunnels run on diesel or gasoline.

[Josh]

MaxPC,

It is categorically absurd to claim that in order to deal with a tunnel one needs to bomb a Catholic Church.

[MaxPC]

MaxPC,

It is categorically absurd to claim that in order to deal with a tunnel one needs to bomb a Catholic Church.

No one said it was not. Nevertheless, those who I know who have fought in urban warfare environments have said that it is much more complex than a rural battlefied. The aim is not to avoid building damage. The aim is to reduce the losses of one's own army.

Catholic churches have been bombed out of existence; suffered catestrophic earthquake and tsunami damage; and vandalised and burned to the ground. The parishes rebuild again. While upsetting, the parish realises it is just a building. We are far more concerned with the torture and beheadings of the innocent. The Pope has been in contact with the Palestinian leadership to offer to help with negotiating a cease-fire. At this point the ball is back in the proverbial court of Hamas. If they release the hostages, Israel is willing to negotiate.

[Bootstrap]

Some people seem to be arguing that all civilians and places of worship and residential buildings are fair game, even if you have to kill and destroy a disproportionate number of them, even without any clear definition of what the military goal is.

And some people seem to be arguing that retaliation and revenge against innocent citizens is fair game. That hospitals and apartment buildings and churches and schools are all fair game, along with the patients and residents and children. As long as the victims are Palestinian, not Jewish. When 45% of all residential housing has been destroyed or significantly damaged, when the bodies of children are stacked on top of each other in the morgues because there is no room for more, when food and water and medical supplies have been shut off, we are supposed to have zero compassion for Palestinians. Of course, if these were Israelis or Western Christians, we should have all kinds of compassion. Apparently, Palestinian Christians do not count, if their churches are destroyed, that's fair game. Compassion is only allowed for one side - of course, "we're not taking sides", but when compassion is directed to only one side, of course that's taking sides in a war.

They are saying nobody should be outraged by this, because after all, if you happen to be Palestinian and live in Gaza, you deserve retribution for what somebody else did to Israelis. I don't think this is good moral reasoning. And by this moral reasoning, you could also justify Hamas killing innocent Israelis because of all that has been done to them by others. It's the whole cycle of violence. And in each turn in the cycle, each side wants to show that they can be just a touch more extreme than the other.

I cannot justify this. We should be outraged by what Hamas did on October 7th. For precisely the same reason, we should be outraged by the things that have been happening ever since. Because God cares just as much for Palestinians as he does for Israelis. We are all his children.

Innocent civilians are not fair game. Mennonites and other peacemakers do not need to stumble over themselves to justify slaughtering civilians. I cannot reconcile that with basic Mennonite beliefs. Or with the teaching of Jesus.

[Josh]

I can’t reconcile that with Catholic beliefs either, although prominent Catholics including the Vatican have spoken against the violence going on against Palestinians including attacks and bombings of churches.

As I recently heard a Catholic priest said, “I’d like to see more concern for all the Jewish and Israeli babies slaughtered through abortion as I see for concern about the casualties from the Hamas attacks.” (My paraphrase.)

[Josh]

Israel issued an official protest after Pope Francis expressed concern for Palestinian civilians. From the WSJ:

Israel protested after Pope Francis called for respect for "humanitarian law, especially in Gaza," as Israel prepares to invade the enclave.

"It is inconceivable that an announcement essentially expressing concern for the residents of Gaza is issued at the same time Israel is burying 1,300 murdered citizens," Israel's Minister of Foreign Affairs Eli Cohen said in a statement on Sunday evening.

I think I agree with Pope Francis on this one. Civilians casualties are an evil thing whether perpetrated by the IDF or Hamas. Let’s condemn both!