Major attack on Israel by Hamas

[mike]

It seems like a pretty small chance of success for the West to persuade Israel to adopt a cease-fire or some carefully pre-prepared peace plan while they are probably still reacting out of anger against what happened on Oct. 7.

Hamas Terrorist: We Shot Crying Children ‘Until We Didn’t Hear Noise Anymore’

Interesting that he says that his parents didn't know that he had joined Hamas, and that if his father knew what he did to the Israeli children, his own father would kill him for that.

I know. Which really makes me wonder if Hamas ACTUALLY has popular support, as reported, or whether that isn't really the case. Where, though, is the outrage from the Palestinians who don't support Hamas, or from the broader Muslim world, toward atrocities done by Hamas? Or do they just wring their hands and see that sort of terrorism as inevitable due to Israel's perceived injustices and oppression? It seems to me that as long as Hamas receives popular support from the Palestinians, the Muslim world, and even some in the West, Israel will have zero success in stamping them out. They will just pop up somewhere else than Gaza and promote their cause there. Until Hamas is an international pariah, they will survive this. Maybe they will even benefit from it, and maybe that was the whole idea of the Oct. 7 attack.

[ken_sylvania]

It seems like a pretty small chance of success for the West to persuade Israel to adopt a cease-fire or some carefully pre-prepared peace plan while they are probably still reacting out of anger against what happened on Oct. 7.

Hamas Terrorist: We Shot Crying Children ‘Until We Didn’t Hear Noise Anymore’

Interesting that he says that his parents didn't know that he had joined Hamas, and that if his father knew what he did to the Israeli children, his own father would kill him for that.

I know. Which really makes me wonder if Hamas ACTUALLY has popular support, as reported, or whether that isn't really the case. Where, though, is the outrage from the Palestinians who don't support Hamas, or from the broader Muslim world, toward atrocities done by Hamas? Or do they just wring their hands and see that sort of terrorism as inevitable due to Israel's perceived injustices and oppression? It seems to me that as long as Hamas receives popular support from the Palestinians, the Muslim world, and even some in the West, Israel will have zero success in stamping them out. They will just pop up somewhere else than Gaza and promote their cause there. Until Hamas is an international pariah, they will survive this. Maybe they will even benefit from it, and maybe that was the whole idea of the Oct. 7 attack.

I imagine it would be incredibly dangerous for a Gaza resident to condemn Hamas' actions.

[ken_sylvania]

I've done a fair amount of work with refugees, and had countless long conversations with Germans in Berlin who lived through World War II. I suspect I understand the civilian cost of war reasonably well.

I am certainly not a military strategist. Perhaps you can explain what the military objectives should be, and how they should achieve them? Or are you suggesting terrorizing the civilian population is a perfectly good way to wage war? I assume you are not. So what exactly are you suggesting?

I have never been to Gaza, I don’t know the population, I don’t know the weapons or capabilities of either side. To sit here and arm chair general I need to know what imaginary forces I have and what I’m going against.
There is zero way to send military into a situation like this without civilian casualties.
Okay so send in police? Sure if you want police getting shot and ending up looking like Military occupation with long drawn out repeated violations of human rights that effectively end with a drawn out process.

Talking to civilians is easy. Talk to the military on the other end that faced children bombs and tell me you can have a “measured response”
Ultimately, you seem content to ignore mention of Egypt and their “responsibilities” and Hamas repeated efforts to mix civilian and “military” targets.

Assume for a moment that a military is attacked but to stop the attackers, they need to bomb a hospital. What is the right action here?
International law says it’s a war crime on either side and one side is hiding behind these things.
Americans have bombed hospitals, weddings, cars with missionaries and strictly military targets. Why did nothing come of this? Because Americans are the ones with the big stick right now.
This is partly why you cannot serve in the military and expect to be ethical or follow the teachings Jesus gave.

I might be wrong, but I think international law says it's OK to bomb a hospital if there is an appropriate military objective in doing so.

[Soloist]

I might be wrong, but I think international law says it's OK to bomb a hospital if there is an appropriate military objective in doing so.

It’s a little more complicated then that and the proof is the primary question. Those doing the attack will say it’s a legitimate target. The attacked will claim it wasn’t legitimate and was a war crime.
Every single time the attacker claims legitimacy in the target be it a school, a hospital, a nursing home… likewise those opposed will claim it’s not legitimate. We don’t generally have the ability to determine the truth and trusting media isn’t any more close to the truth.

[mike]

Interesting that he says that his parents didn't know that he had joined Hamas, and that if his father knew what he did to the Israeli children, his own father would kill him for that.

I know. Which really makes me wonder if Hamas ACTUALLY has popular support, as reported, or whether that isn't really the case. Where, though, is the outrage from the Palestinians who don't support Hamas, or from the broader Muslim world, toward atrocities done by Hamas? Or do they just wring their hands and see that sort of terrorism as inevitable due to Israel's perceived injustices and oppression? It seems to me that as long as Hamas receives popular support from the Palestinians, the Muslim world, and even some in the West, Israel will have zero success in stamping them out. They will just pop up somewhere else than Gaza and promote their cause there. Until Hamas is an international pariah, they will survive this. Maybe they will even benefit from it, and maybe that was the whole idea of the Oct. 7 attack.

I imagine it would be incredibly dangerous for a Gaza resident to condemn Hamas' actions.

I expect so. Which might also make the polls that show popular support for Hamas unreliable, shall we say.

[Bootstrap]

Hamas is in complete control of Gaza. Their policy aims are thus operant in and able to be acted on at will. As we saw 3 weeks ago

I wouldn't agree they are in "complete control" simply because they are not in control of their borders. Most specifically, they don't control their access to the Med Sea nor do they control their border with Egypt.

It's not just their borders. Long before the current war, in "peacetime", this is what it looked like. Which is why Israel can simply turn off electricity, water, and cellphone service whenever it wants, for instance.

I don't think this looks like a Gaza in "complete control":

• Blockade: Israel, along with Egypt, imposes a land, sea, and air blockade on the Gaza Strip. This blockade controls the movement of goods, people, and materials in and out of Gaza. It is primarily intended for security reasons, but it also has a substantial impact on the daily lives of Gazans.
• Security Operations: Israel conducts occasional military operations in Gaza, especially in response to rocket attacks launched from the Gaza Strip into Israel. These operations can have a significant impact on the region.
• Control of Borders: Israel controls several border crossings into Gaza, including the Erez Crossing (for people) and the Kerem Shalom Crossing (for goods). These crossings are subject to restrictions and closures.
• Electrical and Water Supply: Israel supplies electricity and some of the water to Gaza. These supplies can be used as leverage or reduced in times of tension.
• Airspace and Waters: Israel controls the airspace over Gaza and its coastal waters. This control limits the movement of people and goods into and out of the territory.
• Tax Collection: Israel collects taxes on behalf of the Palestinian Authority, including taxes from goods imported into Gaza. These tax revenues can affect the economic situation in Gaza.
• Coordination with Palestinian Authority: While Hamas controls Gaza's internal affairs, Israel coordinates security and civilian matters with the Palestinian Authority (PA), which governs parts of the West Bank. This division complicates governance in the Palestinian territories.

[barnhart]

I know. Which really makes me wonder if Hamas ACTUALLY has popular support, as reported, or whether that isn't really the case. Where, though, is the outrage from the Palestinians who don't support Hamas, or from the broader Muslim world, toward atrocities done by Hamas? Or do they just wring their hands and see that sort of terrorism as inevitable due to Israel's perceived injustices and oppression? It seems to me that as long as Hamas receives popular support from the Palestinians, the Muslim world, and even some in the West, Israel will have zero success in stamping them out. They will just pop up somewhere else than Gaza and promote their cause there. Until Hamas is an international pariah, they will survive this. Maybe they will even benefit from it, and maybe that was the whole idea of the Oct. 7 attack.

I imagine it would be incredibly dangerous for a Gaza resident to condemn Hamas' actions.

I expect so. Which might also make the polls that show popular support for Hamas unreliable, shall we say.

This is possible, I don't think we can know what the level of support is with certainty.

[Bootstrap]

I might be wrong, but I think international law says it's OK to bomb a hospital if there is an appropriate military objective in doing so.

It’s a little more complicated then that and the proof is the primary question. Those doing the attack will say it’s a legitimate target. The attacked will claim it wasn’t legitimate and was a war crime.
Every single time the attacker claims legitimacy in the target be it a school, a hospital, a nursing home… likewise those opposed will claim it’s not legitimate. We don’t generally have the ability to determine the truth and trusting media isn’t any more close to the truth.

I'm also no expert on international law, but I think that:

1. It's against the Geneva Conventions to place military infrastructure in hospitals or schools because that would tempt the enemy to bomb them.
2. Bombing a hospital, even if there is a legitimate military target nearby, is generally considered a violation of international humanitarian law, specifically the principle of proportionality. Proportionality requires that the anticipated military advantage of an attack must outweigh the anticipated harm to civilians or civilian objects. Deliberate or reckless attacks on hospitals are prohibited and can be prosecuted as war crimes.
So there are two war crimes here, not just one.

[Bootstrap]

An overview of the war situation in Gaza and Israel.

I think this is a good place to see who is getting killed, how much aid is getting in, etc. For instance, 67% of Palestinian fatalities are women and children. Before the October 7th attacks, 500 trucks were entering every single working day. Since October 21st, 272 trucks with humanitarian aid have been allowed in - less than 1/2 of a typical working day - and I think that's the total since shortly after the October 7th attack. That's nothing like 100 trucks a day, as claimed, and even that would be 1/5th of normal levels. At least 45% of housing units have been destroyed or damaged. 21 hospitals. 246 educational facilities. 7 churches, 52 mosques.

All 13 hospitals have been told to evacuate.

Use the link below or click on the image to see it more clearly.

https://www.ochaopt.org/crisis

[Bootstrap]

Who and how many people are getting killed in Gaza?

One of the better analyses on civilian vs. militant deaths in Gaza.