Major attack on Israel by Hamas

[Josh]

I think that Egypt should allow Gazans to find refuge in Egypt, and give them food and aid. That is what many countries would do. The USA and the EU both are offering to help with the costs - which again, is something more than the oil rich, fellow Arab countries are willing to do. They have an 8 mile border with Gaza. But Egypt has rejected a humanitarian corridor across the border. Hamas is such trouble makers that Egypt wants nothing to do with them either. Egypt would apparently rather see suffering and a humanitarian crisis unfold in Gaza, than lift a finger to alleviate the situation.

In the past Egypt fought wars with Israel over control of what is Gaza now. Israel won, so the territory is theirs.

I don’t see why Egypt should have to take care of Israel’s problems now.

I thought Gaza was its own nation? If so, why should Israel take care of Gaza anymore that Egypt should?

Fact remains, that Egypt does have a land border with Gaza that Egypt controls - not Israel.

According to Israel, Gaza isn’t it, and Israel controls Gaza’s borders (including a sea blockade, which is an obvious place aid could get in, but the IL government doesn’t allow that)

Egypt and Israel have an agreement where they make joint decisions on what happens with the southern border.

Gaza has about as much control over its borders and airspace as I do.

[Josh]

Some fast facts about Gaza:

- it has over 2 million people, roughly the same population as metro Pittsburgh

- it is just 147 square miles - about 1/5th the size of Lancaster County

- there are 3 crossings allowed in or out. The rest is walled off (although Hamas digs tunnels underneath the wall.)

- They aren’t allowed to use airspace for flights in or out and aren’t allowed to use the sea other than for local fishing boats. There used to be an airport but it got bombed/destroyed.

- The population skews very young. Average age is just 18. America is 39, globally the average is 28.

- Jobs are scarce and the country is dependent on imports of fuel, water, and food.

- No elections have been held since 2006.

- The region used to be thriving but since Hamas won an election in 2006 and it got cut off from the West Bank, the area has mired into poverty.

- Cramming 2 million people into such a tiny space means it is very very population dense. Many parts are more dense than Los Angeles.

[Ken]

Hamas which is the de facto ruler of Gaza wanted war with Israel. This is what war with Israel looks like.

But Hamas is not the civilian population.

Polls Show Majority of Gazans Were Against Breaking Ceasefire; Hamas and Hezbollah Unpopular Among Key Arab Publics

And at the same time:

Israeli poll finds 49% support for holding off on Gaza invasion

It really depends on how you ask the question. All around the world including in the West Bank and Gaza you see endless protests along these lines:





The fact of the matter is that "resistance" is just another word for violence. And organized violence is war.

So I would contend that war against Israel (i.e. resistance) is indeed an immensely popular position for Palestinians, the larger population of Arabs and Muslims, and for their many supporters on the left. They support violence AGAINST Israel as evidenced by the many slogans. They protest in outrage when Israel responds with violence back.

Which is frankly a morally bankrupt point of view. If you really want "resistance" to Israeli rule, now is your chance. Go for it. The Israelis are all over Gaza. The whole place is a free fire zone. Have at it. Resist all you want.

Maybe eventually humans will learn that violence really isn't the answer. But I'm not hopeful. The most we can hope for is to reduce the incentive for war and violence by making sure it isn't rewarded. Not in Gaza, not in Ukraine, not in Yemen, or anywhere else.

And in Gaza we won't ever see an eventual solution to the conflict until BOTH the Israelis and Palestinians come to conclude that violence simply makes things worse.

[Bootstrap]

Maybe eventually humans will learn that violence really isn't the answer. But I'm not hopeful. The most we can hope for is to reduce the incentive for war and violence by making sure it isn't rewarded. Not in Gaza, not in Ukraine, not in Yemen, or anywhere else.

And in Gaza we won't ever see an eventual solution to the conflict until BOTH the Israelis and Palestinians come to conclude that violence simply makes things worse.

Exactly.

[HondurasKeiser]

That just isn’t realistic. They would still be attacked.

Indeed, they were given the opportunity to have a their own country and rejected it because well you know: “…from the River to the Sea…” and all that jazz.

BOTH Israel and the Palestinians are claiming "from the river to the sea" but neither of them wants to accommodate the other's legitimate claims to the land, both as a people, and in terms of individual property rights.

Can you show me where they make that claim? Israel that is.

[Bootstrap]

BOTH Israel and the Palestinians are claiming "from the river to the sea" but neither of them wants to accommodate the other's legitimate claims to the land, both as a people, and in terms of individual property rights.

Can you show me where they make that claim? Israel that is.

For starters ...

Netanyahu: No Palestinian state on my watch
PM pledges thousands of apartments in East Jerusalem, says construction will curb Bethlehem’s encroachment on capital

Israeli far-right's Ben-Gvir to be national security minister under coalition deal

Ben-Gvir, who was convicted in 2007 of racist incitement against Arabs and backing a group considered by Israel and the United States to be a terrorist organization, will have an expanded security portfolio that will include responsibility for Border Police in the occupied West Bank.

[Bootstrap]

BOTH Israel and the Palestinians are claiming "from the river to the sea" but neither of them wants to accommodate the other's legitimate claims to the land, both as a people, and in terms of individual property rights.

Can you show me where they make that claim? Israel that is.

And a little more ...

In the West Bank, Israel’s Judicial Coup Has Another Name: It’s Called Annexation

The Netanyahu government’s radical legislative program within the Green Line is closely connected with control over the West Bank in every respect - except for an official declaration ■ 'This is annexation in every way, without all the pomp and circumstance of cutting the ribbon, as Putin did in Crimea'

[Bootstrap]

One more ...

https://apnews.com/article/israel-pales ... 9f13fd5f25

A far-right Israeli Cabinet minister visited Jerusalem’s most sensitive holy site on Sunday, declaring that “we are in charge,” while the Israeli Cabinet held a rare meeting in Jerusalem’s Old City to celebrate its control of the area.

The visit by Itamar Ben-Gvir to the disputed hilltop compound drew condemnations from the Palestinians and Israel’s neighbor, Jordan. The site is revered by Jews and Muslims, and the competing claims lie at the heart of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Ben-Gvir, a former West Bank settler leader and far-right activist who years ago was convicted of incitement and supporting a Jewish terror group, now serves as Israel’s national security minister, overseeing the country’s police force.

The site, known to Jews as the Temple Mount, is the holiest site in Judaism, where the biblical Temples once stood. Today, it is home to the Al Aqsa Mosque, the third-holiest site in Islam.

[Bootstrap]

Gaza can’t be both its own nation, and then expect Israel to supply all its needs.
Further, no criticism of Israel and its blockade is complete without equal criticism of Egypt and its blockade. But Egypt is alway left off the hook. Why?
Why is it Israel’s responsibility to funnel aid to Gaza, to be attacked from Gaza, to give work permits to Gaza, to field humanitarian criticism from Gaza, but Egypt doesn’t have to do anything at all?

Gaza is not remotely its own nation. Palestine would like to be a nation. Israel won't let it. Palestine would like live on the land that the United Nations says is legally theirs. Land where Israel is building settlements. In the eyes of most humanitarian and aid groups, Israel has occupied Palestine since 1967. And that makes them responsible. Egypt does not occupy Palestine. I think that's why Israel gets more criticism.

Israel is BLOCKING aid form Gaza. Nobody is asking Israel to "funnel" aid to Gaza, they are asking Israel to allow aid to civilians. If Israel decides, single-handedly, that civilians in Gaza should not be allowed to have food, water, shelter, and medical aid, even if other people want to provide it, then Israel is responsible for doing that.

[Josh]

Indeed, they were given the opportunity to have a their own country and rejected it because well you know: “…from the River to the Sea…” and all that jazz.

BOTH Israel and the Palestinians are claiming "from the river to the sea" but neither of them wants to accommodate the other's legitimate claims to the land, both as a people, and in terms of individual property rights.

Can you show me where they make that claim? Israel that is.

The Likud party’s founding documents.