Major attack on Israel by Hamas

[mike]

If Hamas deliberately targeted innocent Israeli civilians in their terrorist attack, as they clearly did, what is their moral authority for complaining about Palestinian civilians being killed in Israeli attacks, especially if Israel gives warning and time for civilians to evacuate as they supposedly do routinely?

Let's turn that around. If Israelis have deliberately targeted Palestinians in atrocities, why should they complain about Hamas killing Israelis?

Because innocents should be protected. Because killing children indiscriminately is an outrage. Because civilians are not presumed to be terrorists, and are not guilty of everything someone else did.

Which side is known for using civilians and buildings such as hospitals as shields for terror attacks and infrastructure?

[mike]

I think it would be rare to have 1,500 people that are so mentally depressed by their situation that they see no way out other than to die while killing as many people as they can.

I don't understand what you are saying here. 1,500 people matches the number of Israelis who were killed, but they clearly don't match your description. What are you thinking of?

I think the religious element is probably much more of a thing a feeling of desperation. I think these killers went out with a real joy and delight in what they were planning to do because in their religious world they were doing the ultimate good, waging holy war and giving their lives for their faith.

I think that's hard to separate from the desperation.

And don't Israeli soldiers have similar motivation? Some of them out of religious identity, others out of national identity? People want to protect their own kind. Most groups celebrate their own martyrs.

I was thinking of the 1500 Hamas terrorists that entered Israel to commit the attacks.

[Bootstrap]

I was thinking of the 1500 Hamas terrorists that entered Israel to commit the attacks.

Ah. I didn't know that number.

[mike]

I was thinking of the 1500 Hamas terrorists that entered Israel to commit the attacks.

Ah. I didn't know that number.

That's a number I've seen for how about how many Hamas fighters' bodies were found in Israel. The UN says there were about that number.

[Bootstrap]

Let's turn that around. If Israelis have deliberately targeted Palestinians in atrocities, why should they complain about Hamas killing Israelis?

Because innocents should be protected. Because killing children indiscriminately is an outrage. Because civilians are not presumed to be terrorists, and are not guilty of everything someone else did.

Which side is known for using civilians and buildings such as hospitals as shields for terror attacks and infrastructure?

I think both sides can play that kind of game, though. Which side took the other's country and made the other permanent refugees? There's always an excuse for killing civilians on the other side. And each side is eager to justify what they do.

Yes, when Israel enters Gaza to eliminate Hamas, it's like entering New York City to eliminate accountants. There's no obvious place to find them. They are mixed up with all kinds of other people. It's hard to create clear military objectives. But that's not an excuse for indiscriminately killing lots of civilians.

I do think Israel needs to defend itself. But retaliation is revenge, not defense. And revenge begets revenge.

[ken_sylvania]

Retaliation is not usually an effective deterrent. Killing large numbers of children and other civilians usually makes the other side mad and encourages them to seek revenge. The United States lost the wars in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

One thing unique about Afghanistan and Iraq has been the lack of all-out blanket bombing of the civilian population. For instance, consider how the US waged war against Germany and Japan, in which the US deliberately targeted residential areas and cities with no regard to where there was a distinctly military target anywhere close.
One might even argue that these were the last two major wars in which the US decisively won.

[ken_sylvania]

Retaliation is not a coherent military strategy to achieve peace.

What is? I guess I'm not up on my war history right now, but I'm trying to think of any war that achieved peace and only included defensive fighting.

[Valerie]

Let's turn that around. If Israelis have deliberately targeted Palestinians in atrocities, why should they complain about Hamas killing Israelis?

Because innocents should be protected. Because killing children indiscriminately is an outrage. Because civilians are not presumed to be terrorists, and are not guilty of everything someone else did.

Which side is known for using civilians and buildings such as hospitals as shields for terror attacks and infrastructure?

I think both sides can play that kind of game, though. Which side took the other's country and made the other permanent refugees? There's always an excuse for killing civilians on the other side. And each side is eager to justify what they do.

Yes, when Israel enters Gaza to eliminate Hamas, it's like entering New York City to eliminate accountants. There's no obvious place to find them. They are mixed up with all kinds of other people. It's hard to create clear military objectives. But that's not an excuse for indiscriminately killing lots of civilians.

I do think Israel needs to defend itself. But retaliation is revenge, not defense. And revenge begets revenge.

This is the only person I will now listen to. He is son of Hamas leader . He served in Hamas. He lived in Gaza. He knows what he's talking about. Once you see his name, start watching his recent videos & articles. The rest of us are guessing

[Josh]

This is the only person I will now listen to. He is son of Hamas leader . He served in Hamas. He lived in Gaza. He knows what he's talking about. Once you see his name, start watching his recent videos & articles. The rest of us are guessing

Valerie, nobody here is defending Hamas or wants to see them "win". There is, however, a third position that means we don't think Hamas being evil somehow gives the current Israeli government a blank check to also be evil.

[mike]

Let's turn that around. If Israelis have deliberately targeted Palestinians in atrocities, why should they complain about Hamas killing Israelis?

Because innocents should be protected. Because killing children indiscriminately is an outrage. Because civilians are not presumed to be terrorists, and are not guilty of everything someone else did.

Which side is known for using civilians and buildings such as hospitals as shields for terror attacks and infrastructure?

I think both sides can play that kind of game, though. Which side took the other's country and made the other permanent refugees? There's always an excuse for killing civilians on the other side. And each side is eager to justify what they do.

Yes, when Israel enters Gaza to eliminate Hamas, it's like entering New York City to eliminate accountants. There's no obvious place to find them. They are mixed up with all kinds of other people. It's hard to create clear military objectives. But that's not an excuse for indiscriminately killing lots of civilians.

I do think Israel needs to defend itself. But retaliation is revenge, not defense. And revenge begets revenge.

If Hamas had the weapons at its disposal that Israel has (modern army & equipment, including presumably nuclear weapons), what do you think Hamas would do?