Crime rates for immigrants

[Josh]

If immigrants commit significantly more crime, wouldn't regions where they gather have high crime rates. This should be easy to verify.

Here's one article that takes that approach.

The immigration–crime relationship: Evidence across US metropolitan areas

We combine 2000 US Census data and 2000 Uniform Crime Report data to explore how the foreign-born population influences criminal offending across a sample of metropolitan areas. After controlling for a host of demographic and economic characteristics, we find that immigration does not increase crime rates, and some aspects of immigration lessen crime in metropolitan areas.

Boot, yet it is very obvious in a place like Hazleton, Pa., that the crime rate has gone way up when it used to be very low. At some point, people who are pro-immigration and think we need endless legal and illegal immigration (under the guise of "asylum") need to be accountable for the fact that their promoted policies increase crime, DUIs, people driving without insurance, and so on, and lead to significantly decreased quality of life. These are actual facts, even if carefully-crafted studies try to claim it is not so.

Having lived most of my adult life in immigrant-heavy places and living now in a place that has virtually none, there is a rather striking difference indeed. I don't need to lock my doors or worry about my car being stolen, or getting hit by someone without insurance, which was a grave and present concern when I lived in California. Like it or not, large waves of illegal and legal immigration decrease social capital and decrease social bonds, increase population churn, and ultimately lead to a lot more non-acquaintance crime. And this ultimately leads to much lower quality of life for everyone involved. The real question is why some people seem to feel such a strong need to try to promote mass immigration at every turn.

[ken_sylvania]

In some ways, if people want to cherry pick statistics to make their point, it's kind of fun to go find some other statistics that contradict the narrative.
I could point out here as well that it is a crime to unlawfully enter the United States, so if we can accurately assume that an undocumented immigrant (I'm not sure if a person who overstays their visa is considered undocument or not) is also a person who entered the US unlawfully, then the crime rate is really 100%.

Don't be silly.

I quite literally went out and looked for summaries of crime rates for immigrants and posted the first credible research I found, no cherry picking involved, with a variety of measures. If you have better evidence, please provide it. So far, you haven't.

The people who are trying to scare us about immigrants imply that they are terrorists, rapists, that the crime rate will soar if immigrants come here. If those things are not true, that really matters. Nobody doubts that immigrants step on American soil. If people are lying to us about basic facts, encouraging us to hate and fear immigrants, we should pay attention to that.

Sure, way to go! Ad hominem attacks for the win! Shall I call you silly as well, or shall I try to find some other derogative adjective to use?

Would you really be OK with using this same type of data to show that Black people are multiple times more likely to commit crime compared with White people? If not, then how can it be ok to use it to prove that citizens are more likely to commit crime compared with non-citizens?

There is a small city not far from where I live, where there are many unlicensed, uninsured drivers and for some reason most of them seem to share a common racial heritage. To be sure, the younger generation probably are US citizens, but overall they have maintained a culture of driving unregistered, uninsured vehicles, and if they get in an accident the driver just disappears. As you can imagine, such practices don't endear them to the folks from the surrounding communities, who get to pay for their own repairs when these uninsured vehicles cause accidents. Of course, if the driver doesn't get caught it will never show up as a crime committed by an undocumented immigrant, and since it isn't a felony it wouldn't show up in the report you cited either. But this is the type of experiences that causes some people to link illegal immigration and crime.

[Ken]

It is all the same thing frankly in terms of immigration status. For example, bars and restaurants in NYC and Boston are full of Irish and Aussies working under the table waiting table and tending bar. They are white and have "cute" accents so no one cares and ICE never hunts them down. Technically they haven't even overstayed a tourist visa because those countries are visa waiver countries. But they are here illegally and not authorized to work. Absolutely no different from say a Guatemalan landscaper who crossed the border on foot.

Speaking as someone who has attended plenty of bars and restaurants in NYC and Boston I can attest that I have encountered a great deal of Hispanic, Latino (some legal residents or citizens and some illegal aliens, I'm sure), and have run in very, very few Irish or Australian staff.

And, in fact, most immigrants these days actually cross at regular border crossings and make asylum claims. So they aren't in fact, here illegally. They are here legally. What they don't have (because it takes over a year to get) is work authorization.

So, according to you, Ken, all someone has to do is intend to make an asylum claim and they're magically a legal immigrant?

You should educate yourself Josh.

1. Yes it is perfectly legal under both international and US law to come to the US and make an asylum claim. In fact, it is even legal to cross the border "illegally" by jumping a fence provided that you present yourself at the nearest immigration or border post and make your asylum claim. Which is what many people do.

2. It currently takes something like 3-4 years to get an asylum court date. Meanwhile asylum applicants are released into the country under the system of "parole" which means they do, in fact, have legal status pending their court date. And they can request temporary work authorization as well which takes about a year to be approved.

None of that means the person in question is a "legal immigrant". Nor does it mean they are an "illegal immigrant". Their status is simply pending final decision.

Don't like it? Change the laws or surge resources into the immigration system so that those unreasonably long backlogs can be eliminated and asylum claims can be arbitrated on a timely manner.

Personally I have lived and worked in 4 different Latin American countries and I don't believe that more than a tiny fraction of these claims are actual legitimate asylum claims. But the immediate solution is to fix the system. The longer term solution is to fix the economic and social realities that are driving people out of Latin America and drawing them into the US. But that is the subject of another thread.

[Ken]

If immigrants commit significantly more crime, wouldn't regions where they gather have high crime rates. This should be easy to verify.

Here's one article that takes that approach.

The immigration–crime relationship: Evidence across US metropolitan areas

We combine 2000 US Census data and 2000 Uniform Crime Report data to explore how the foreign-born population influences criminal offending across a sample of metropolitan areas. After controlling for a host of demographic and economic characteristics, we find that immigration does not increase crime rates, and some aspects of immigration lessen crime in metropolitan areas.

Boot, yet it is very obvious in a place like Hazleton, Pa., that the crime rate has gone way up when it used to be very low. At some point, people who are pro-immigration and think we need endless legal and illegal immigration (under the guise of "asylum") need to be accountable for the fact that their promoted policies increase crime, DUIs, people driving without insurance, and so on, and lead to significantly decreased quality of life. These are actual facts, even if carefully-crafted studies try to claim it is not so.

Having lived most of my adult life in immigrant-heavy places and living now in a place that has virtually none, there is a rather striking difference indeed. I don't need to lock my doors or worry about my car being stolen, or getting hit by someone without insurance, which was a grave and present concern when I lived in California. Like it or not, large waves of illegal and legal immigration decrease social capital and decrease social bonds, increase population churn, and ultimately lead to a lot more non-acquaintance crime. And this ultimately leads to much lower quality of life for everyone involved. The real question is why some people seem to feel such a strong need to try to promote mass immigration at every turn.

I would venture to guess that over 99.9% of the residents of your home community are either (1) immigrants, or (2) the descendants of immigrants.

Yourself included.

[Josh]

I would venture to guess that over 99.9% of the residents of your home community are either (1) immigrants, or (2) the descendants of immigrants.

Yourself included.

The topic at hand are illegal aliens or people claiming asylum, particularly such people from Central America. Please stay on topic.

[ken_sylvania]

I would venture to guess that over 99.9% of the residents of your home community are either (1) immigrants, or (2) the descendants of immigrants.

Yourself included.

The topic at hand are illegal aliens or people claiming asylum, particularly such people from Central America. Please stay on topic.

You claimed that "immigrant heavy" areas have higher crime. You did not limit your claims to illegal aliens or people claiming asylum. Shall we rewind the tape? These were your exact words that I was responding to.

Having lived most of my adult life in immigrant-heavy places and living now in a place that has virtually none, there is a rather striking difference indeed. I don't need to lock my doors or worry about my car being stolen, or getting hit by someone without insurance, which was a grave and present concern when I lived in California. Like it or not, large waves of illegal and legal immigration decrease social capital and decrease social bonds, increase population churn, and ultimately lead to a lot more non-acquaintance crime. And this ultimately leads to much lower quality of life for everyone involved. The real question is why some people seem to feel such a strong need to try to promote mass immigration at every turn.

The mass immigration you are complaining about is exactly what populated Ohio including your own home town.

I would venture to say the previous residents were not exactly pleased about those waves of immigration that populated Ohio. It certainly ruined the quality of life of the previous population.

[Josh]

I would venture to say the previous residents were not exactly pleased about those waves of immigration that populated Ohio. It certainly ruined the quality of life of the previous population.

Yes, but look at all the new kinds of restaurants the previous residents can enjoy now.

[Bootstrap]

In some ways, if people want to cherry pick statistics to make their point, it's kind of fun to go find some other statistics that contradict the narrative.
I could point out here as well that it is a crime to unlawfully enter the United States, so if we can accurately assume that an undocumented immigrant (I'm not sure if a person who overstays their visa is considered undocument or not) is also a person who entered the US unlawfully, then the crime rate is really 100%.

Don't be silly.

I quite literally went out and looked for summaries of crime rates for immigrants and posted the first credible research I found, no cherry picking involved, with a variety of measures. If you have better evidence, please provide it. So far, you haven't.

The people who are trying to scare us about immigrants imply that they are terrorists, rapists, that the crime rate will soar if immigrants come here. If those things are not true, that really matters. Nobody doubts that immigrants step on American soil. If people are lying to us about basic facts, encouraging us to hate and fear immigrants, we should pay attention to that.

Sure, way to go! Ad hominem attacks for the win! Shall I call you silly as well, or shall I try to find some other derogative adjective to use?

Ken, would you please examine all the ad hominem attacks in the paragraph that started this? "Cherry pick", "to make their point" "fun to go find some other statistics..." It's just one long string of "derogative adjectives" that don't even try to address the substance of what I posted.

And it's not true. That's not what I was doing. But if we are going to have a discussion that goes beyond ad hominem attacks, you might have to read what I wrote and respond to the substance instead of hurling adjectives at me.

When I look at studies on the relationship between crime and immigration, I can't see anything that backs up the emotional claims that some politicians and media sources are throwing around. We don't have thousands of terrorist suspects entering the United States. Immigration has not created a huge crime wave. Perhaps you can find better studies than I can? If so, feel free.

[Ken]

I would venture to say the previous residents were not exactly pleased about those waves of immigration that populated Ohio. It certainly ruined the quality of life of the previous population.

Yes, but look at all the new kinds of restaurants the previous residents can enjoy now.

Immigrant restaurants like these?

Immigrants who as you say, can't be bothered to learn the language and assimilate?

[ken_sylvania]

Don't be silly.

I quite literally went out and looked for summaries of crime rates for immigrants and posted the first credible research I found, no cherry picking involved, with a variety of measures. If you have better evidence, please provide it. So far, you haven't.

The people who are trying to scare us about immigrants imply that they are terrorists, rapists, that the crime rate will soar if immigrants come here. If those things are not true, that really matters. Nobody doubts that immigrants step on American soil. If people are lying to us about basic facts, encouraging us to hate and fear immigrants, we should pay attention to that.

Sure, way to go! Ad hominem attacks for the win! Shall I call you silly as well, or shall I try to find some other derogative adjective to use?

Ken, would you please examine all the ad hominem attacks in the paragraph that started this? "Cherry pick", "to make their point" "fun to go find some other statistics..." It's just one long string of "derogative adjectives" that don't even try to address the substance of what I posted.

And it's not true. That's not what I was doing. But if we are going to have a discussion that goes beyond ad hominem attacks, you might have to read what I wrote and respond to the substance instead of hurling adjectives at me.

When I look at studies on the relationship between crime and immigration, I can't see anything that backs up the emotional claims that some politicians and media sources are throwing around. We don't have thousands of terrorist suspects entering the United States. Immigration has not created a huge crime wave. Perhaps you can find better studies than I can? If so, feel free.

That paragraph wasn't even directed at you or attempting to describe you! I was replying to RZehr's question about whether I am comfortable using felony arrest rates as a proxy for crime rates.

I also actually took the time to explain why I don't think felony arrest rates is a good proxy for crime rates.