The Twelve Tribes in Prophecy

[Neto]

but they do believe that eventually, the Jewish nation on earth at the time will be saved

I’ve always found this view a bit odd. They believe that every single person in that nation will have a born again experience and accept salvation?

I agree (that is, I have also always found that to be odd - or incorrect), but in the Pre-trib, Pre-mil setting I grew up in, it was modeled after the OT idea of a remnant. So they would be saying that all those who were "looking for the redemption of Israel", although they had not recognized Jesus as the Messiah before, those people would all accept His as their Messiah during that period of time. (This may well have had different permutations in other settings.)

[silentreader]

but they do believe that eventually, the Jewish nation on earth at the time will be saved

I’ve always found this view a bit odd. They believe that every single person in that nation will have a born again experience and accept salvation?

I agree (that is, I have also always found that to be odd - or incorrect), but in the Pre-trib, Pre-mil setting I grew up in, it was modeled after the OT idea of a remnant. So they would be saying that all those who were "looking for the redemption of Israel", although they had not recognized Jesus as the Messiah before, those people would all accept His as their Messiah during that period of time. (This may well have had different permutations in other settings.)

And the 144,000 are the first-fruits of Israel who have turned to Christ.

[Josh]

I’ve always found this view a bit odd. They believe that every single person in that nation will have a born again experience and accept salvation?

I agree (that is, I have also always found that to be odd - or incorrect), but in the Pre-trib, Pre-mil setting I grew up in, it was modeled after the OT idea of a remnant. So they would be saying that all those who were "looking for the redemption of Israel", although they had not recognized Jesus as the Messiah before, those people would all accept His as their Messiah during that period of time. (This may well have had different permutations in other settings.)

And the 144,000 are the first-fruits of Israel who have turned to Christ.

I have met someone on Nazareth who believes (along with her whole family) they are descendants of the original converts there. As far as they know, their family has been in Nazareth for thousands of years and has kept the faith ever since Jesus walked the streets there as a toddler.

More importantly, there are more than 144,000 such people in present-day Israel.

[silentreader]

I’ve always found this view a bit odd. They believe that every single person in that nation will have a born again experience and accept salvation?

I agree (that is, I have also always found that to be odd - or incorrect), but in the Pre-trib, Pre-mil setting I grew up in, it was modeled after the OT idea of a remnant. So they would be saying that all those who were "looking for the redemption of Israel", although they had not recognized Jesus as the Messiah before, those people would all accept His as their Messiah during that period of time. (This may well have had different permutations in other settings.)

And the 144,000 are the first-fruits of Israel who have turned to Christ.

Sorry, should have given the reference...Revelation 14:1-5

Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, 3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, 5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

[Heirbyadoption]

More importantly, there are more than 144,000 such people in present-day Israel.

Does the fact that 144K will be drawn out specifically for the purpose mentioned in Revelation somehow require that there be no other Jewish folks in existence at that time? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you?

[Soloist]

but they do believe that eventually, the Jewish nation on earth at the time will be saved

I’ve always found this view a bit odd. They believe that every single person in that nation will have a born again experience and accept salvation?

I agree (that is, I have also always found that to be odd - or incorrect), but in the Pre-trib, Pre-mil setting I grew up in, it was modeled after the OT idea of a remnant. So they would be saying that all those who were "looking for the redemption of Israel", although they had not recognized Jesus as the Messiah before, those people would all accept His as their Messiah during that period of time. (This may well have had different permutations in other settings.)

Wife: I don’t know. Maybe the ones not converted didn’t survive the Tribulation? Never went into detail when asking them, but I was satisfied that they weren’t as nutty and political as my dad at least. I guess we’ll see how it all pans out.

Edit. Also, it seems like the pre-TRIB Premillenniallists at our church would think that possibly the antichrist would come from the tribe of Dan. I don’t know if all of them think that or if I’m just getting this from the main guy. I enjoy asking him and his wife these questions since they seem to respect other opinions, and I was happy to find out that it wasn’t some church mandated belief and there’s actually variety at our church. Having grown up having all sorts of nightmares from reading left behind books and freaking out anytime I couldn’t locate my family, it was a big deal to make sure it wasn’t something we were required to believe. I don’t think that couple think that much of that series, by the way.

[barnhart]

I think it's possible the numbers are symbolic of a substantial number. I doubt John counted each group. The fact they are precisely equal and a suspiciously round number (12x12) leans toward symbolism.

[silentreader]

I think it's possible the numbers are symbolic of a substantial number. I doubt John counted each group. The fact they are precisely equal and a suspiciously round number (12x12) leans toward symbolism.

Regardless of whether the number is symbolic or not, and I am open to that possibility, John did not have to count them...
Revelation 7:4

4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

[JohnHurt]

Dan was included in Joshua's allocations.

Yes, thanks for the correction.

But it's interesting that these lists differ. Anyone have a good explanation for that? It's not something I have thought of. And it seems like it might influence interpretation of the Revelation.

Here is my explanation:

The tribe of Dan had already migrated outside the "known world" of the 1st Century, and that is why they are not in the list in Revelation.

Dan was already a maritime power operating outside of Israel by the time of Deborah (1100 BC), who condemned Dan for not returning to help fight for Israel: "and why did Dan remain in ships? " Judges 5:17.

Dan used their ships to trade along with Javan (Ezekiel 27:19). Javan is translated as Greece in Dan 8:21, 10:20, 11:2, Zech 9:13, and so Dan was allied with Greece.

James 1:1 is written "to the twelve tribes scattered abroad" - a statement that all 12 tribes existed in the 1st Century, with the majority outside Palestine. The word "scattered abroad" is Strongs #1290 "diaspora", which means Israelites living in foreign countries.

Diaspora is used in two other places, and it helps us understand where Israel existed in the 1st century.

When Christ said that He was going to a place where the Jews could not find him, the Jews said:

John 7:(35) Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

The word "Gentiles" in this verse is "Hellens" or "Greeks". The American Standard has translated this verse correctly:

ASV
7:35 The Jews therefore said among themselves, Whither will this man go that we shall not find him? will he go unto the Dispersion among the Greeks, and teach the Greeks?

This tells us that some of the Dispersion of Israel was to be found in Greece.

The other verse concerning the "diaspora" is 1st Peter 1:1:

(1) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

The word "scattered" is "diaspora" and tells that at least some of Israel was "sojourning" in these districts in Asia Minor.

Josephus, Antiquities, Chapter 5, section 2 tells us that the 10 Tribes of Israel existed outside Roman occupation:

Wherefore there are but two tribes in Asia and Europe subject to the Romans, while the ten tribes are beyond Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers.

The Euphrates is to the East, and the North of Palestine.

So what happened to the Tribe of Dan?

Dan found they needed more room for their large population, and when they conquered a land, they named it after their ancestor, Dan.

Joshua 19:(47) And the coast of the children of Dan went out too little for them: therefore the children of Dan went up to fight against Leshem, and took it, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and possessed it, and dwelt therein, and called Leshem, Dan, after the name of Dan their father.

So, Dan was a maritime people, trading with the Greeks, and when they would conquer a land, they would name it "Dan".

So, maybe you are with me so far, but your background will prevent you from accepting my conclusion.

So where did Dan go?

To leave the "known world" of the Mediterranean Sea, Dan in his ships would have to pass through the strait of Gibraltar, or go up the rivers that discharged in the Black Sea. And he would give his name "Dan" to all of these places.

The Danube river leads from the Black sea into the heart of Europe, while the Don river leads from the Black sea into Russia. Were these rivers named by Dan?

The Israelites did not use vowels, so the Dnieper river would be a possibility. Gdansk in Poland, and others places may be named after Dan.

Some of these names are well hidden, like Edinburgh Scotland - in Gaelic - is Dunedin, or "Dan's Den" or Dan's resting place. Denmark means "Dan's land", and the "Danes" are a maritime people that knew all of the technology of the Mediterranean, like ship building and iron-making.

The Indo-European Language group links many languages to a common origin in the Middle East. Europeans, speaking a language associated with Sanskrit, did not "appear out of thin air."

If you like to study, do a comparison of the Runic Alphabet to the Paleo-Hebrew Alphabet (not the modern "block letters" Hebrew script). The Paleo Hebrew was used in the Siloam Inscription and was the original alphabet of Israel - and it has a lot of similarities to Runic. Runic is the first alphabet of Europe.

There has to be a connection between Europe and Ancient Israel.

Consider also that the Phoenicians and their ships under Hyrum of Tyre were friends with Solomon (1 Kings 9:27). The Phoenicians went as far as Cornwall, England and mined the tin there. The La Tene and Hallstat cultures in Europe have their roots in the Mediterranean, and they flourished about the same time that Dan "remained in ships".

Where else could Dan go, other than Europe? Why would he go any place else?

And it is easy to dismiss this with a few words, but the question remains, where did Dan go? And why is Dan not in Revelation, other than they had left the "known world" by the time John wrote Revelation? What other answers do we have?

And how did the culture of the Middle East, like building walled cities, smelting iron to make helmets, swords, shields, make it to Europe? And why is Europe the first fertile field of Christianity?

Even an answer that is not "politically acceptable" can still be correct. Galileo found that the Earth "does move", while Semmelweis found that washing your hands is the correct solution, although both ideas were "unacceptable" in their day.

I try to keep an open mind, even when the wind blows very strongly in the other direction.

John

[RZehr]

Interesting!