Major attack on Israel by Hamas

[Ken]

Continuing to weaken the US. Spread our forces and damage reputation.

I doubt it has much to do with the US.

Hamas was seeing their influence and opportunity wane as Israel was making peace overtures with Saudi Arabia and the other gulf states were, for the most part, moving on from the old Arab-Israeli conflicts of the 1960s and 1970s when they all fought directly against Israel. So starting a war with Israel is one way to try to undermine that whole peace process and rally other Arab states to your side.

Also Hamas is a client state of both Iran and Russia so one has to ask what Iran and Russia have to gain. Probably something similar. Iran and Russia would also see their influence in the region wane if Israel and Saudi Arabia make peace along with the other wealthy gulf states. Both Russian and Iranian state media are cheerleading this Hamas invasion so that should tell you a lot.

Russia also wants to distract attention away from its war in Ukraine.

So Russia and Iran supporting an attempt by Hamas to kill Israelis, which will obviously result in overwhelming numbers of Hamas/Palestinians being killed in retaliation, benefits them how? How exactly does this increase Russian or Iranian influence in the region? Influence with who?

It isn't about killing Israelis. It is about disrupting peace between Israel and Saudi Arabia and the greater Abraham accords.

By creating a state of war between Israel and Hamas they make a Saudi-Israeli peace agreement less likely. Simply because large segments of the Saudi population are going to side with the Palestinians. A Saudi-Israeli peace agreement threatens Iranian (and Russian) influence in the region.

Look at a map. You have a Russian and Iranian coalition seeking to exert influence from the north and a US, Saudi, and Israeli coalition seeking to exert influence from the south. Iraq and Syria are in the middle along with an ENORMOUS amount of oil.

Also look at Qatar which is close to Iran. That is where the Hamas leadership is actually based, not in Gaza. So they won't be touched by Israel.

Russia gains from a larger middle east war because the US and other NATO allies will be forced to divert their attention from Ukraine to the middle east. Especially if middle east oil supplies are disrupted as the western world would then be forced to turn back to Russia for oil.

[Bootstrap]

I don't understand why Hamas/Iran does this? What do they think they will gain?

I think it's desperation. People who feel desperate do desperate things. I have talked to Palestinian friends who tell me they no longer feel safe in Israel. I have talked to Jewish friends who live in Israel and see this from a wide variety of different perspectives. I'm not sure they need our opinions or our weapons as much as they need our prayers and compassion.

To me, each side is committing terrorism against the other. Palestinians are not allowed to have a government to represent them, that's the reason it's not two governments at war. But Israel does not want to embrace Palestinians and give them full rights either. I cannot support the terrorism of either side. I have compassion for the victims. I see the very real need for people to have a safe place where they can live their lives, do business, live in their communities.

Palestinians have been told that:

1. Israel now owns the land they took from Palestinians illegally, in addition to land that was given to Israel legally.
2. Israel claims the right to continue to build new settlements in land that legally belongs to Palestinians.
3. Palestinians are not full citizens of Israel and do not have equal rights - there is no hope for either a two state solution or for one state with equal rights.
4. Israel claims the right to do things like bulldoze entire villages where most people are innocent, even in peacetime - the kind of thing terrorists do that I would not normally expect a legitimate government to do.
5. Israel is now steamrolling their Supreme Court to make it harder for them to grant basic human rights to Palestinians.
6. Israel claims the right to disrupt their economy, making it hard for them to support themselves in any way.

I think all Israelis want to live in safety. I don't think anyone in Israel - Jewish or Palestinian or Christian or whatever - has felt good about the way things have been going for a very long time. There are no good military solutions. People have been blocked on diplomatic solutions. Both Jews and Palestinians need to be able to live their lives.

Some Israelis also think they have the right to take over all of Palestine, they believe the Bible gives them that land and they have the right to take it. These are the people who have consistently opposed either a two-state solution or a one-state solution with equal rights for Palestinians.

[temporal1]

Page 1:

GB Link

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“It seems as though the Hamas militants have caught Israel off their guard.
“They [Israel] have been celebrating a festival. Having said that, tensions have been building for a long time, the whole peace process appears to have been frozen.
“Hamas, which is backed by Iran and others, has been waiting for an opportunity to put a marker down.”
More information.

i haven’t read this thread (yet).
Starting off, these GBN articles are dated July 2023, NYT reports this timeline below beginning October 7 2023.
(This may have been addressed earlier, if so, my apologies.)

NYT / “Here’s a timeline of Saturday’s attacks and Israel’s retaliation.”
The first air raid sirens went off at sunrise as Hamas launched an attack by land, sea and air. Israel declared a state of war and has destroyed buildings in Gaza.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/08/worl ... hamas.html

U.S. aircraft carriers are on their way ..

American aircraft carrier USS Gerald R. Ford is seen from the air anchored in Italy in the Gulf of Trieste on September 18, 2023.
ANDREJ TARFILA/SOPA IMAGES/LIGHTROCKET VIA GETTY IMAGES

[Judas Maccabeus]

Probably...it was as true then as it is now...

It is certainly true, but should it be applied to the situation in question?

No

My point exactly. I would say the modern Jewish state has little or no prophetic significance. Therefore one cannot apply prophetic passages to it. It just fails on too many points.

[mike]

It is certainly true, but should it be applied to the situation in question?

No

My point exactly. I would say the modern Jewish state has little or no prophetic significance. Therefore one cannot apply prophetic passages to it. It just fails on too many points.

I agree. It is absolutely astounding to me how much energy has been used up in the past several generations of Christian writers, preachers, and leaders speculating and pontificating about the prophetic significance of the modern nation of Israel.

[barnhart]

It is absolutely astounding to me how much energy has been used up in the past several generations of Christian writers, preachers, and leaders speculating and pontificating about the prophetic significance of the modern nation of Israel.

Anabaptism has not risen above this either. Judging by the responses of Anabaptists to Israel and the middle east, one would imagine the Anabaptist position on kingdoms would have three categories; Jesus' kingdom, the kingdoms of this world and between those, the state of Israel.

[mike]

It is absolutely astounding to me how much energy has been used up in the past several generations of Christian writers, preachers, and leaders speculating and pontificating about the prophetic significance of the modern nation of Israel.

Anabaptism has not risen above this either. Judging by the responses of Anabaptists to Israel and the middle east, one would imagine the Anabaptist position on kingdoms would have three categories; Jesus' kingdom, the kingdoms of this world and between those, the state of Israel.

Right. I was jarred once by a passing statement I heard in a sermon by the Pilgrim Mennonite Conference founding bishop Steven Ebersole to the effect that he has stopped subscribing to a certain magazine because it wasn't Zionist enough.

[Soloist]

Right. I was jarred once by a passing statement I heard in a sermon by the Pilgrim Mennonite Conference founding bishop Steven Ebersole to the effect that he has stopped subscribing to a certain magazine because it wasn't Zionist enough.

Wince…
That does seem to be peak Pilgrim.

[Only an Anz]

Let's pray for peace.

Hamas's attack is evil.

Israel's counterattack, killing hundreds of civilians is also evil.

War is evil.

Amen.

[mike]

I don't understand why Hamas/Iran does this? What do they think they will gain?

I think it's desperation. People who feel desperate do desperate things. I have talked to Palestinian friends who tell me they no longer feel safe in Israel. I have talked to Jewish friends who live in Israel and see this from a wide variety of different perspectives. I'm not sure they need our opinions or our weapons as much as they need our prayers and compassion.

To me, each side is committing terrorism against the other. Palestinians are not allowed to have a government to represent them, that's the reason it's not two governments at war. But Israel does not want to embrace Palestinians and give them full rights either. I cannot support the terrorism of either side. I have compassion for the victims. I see the very real need for people to have a safe place where they can live their lives, do business, live in their communities.

Your wording here seems to confuse the kingdom of God with the kingdoms of this world. Speaking of "our weapons" (!?) in the same sentence as "our prayers and compassion" doesn't make sense to me as a nonresistant Christian. I don't consider myself part of political and especially military solutions to problems.