Cultural Separation from Parents

[temporal1]

Nomad:
.. I never really took the time to think of it from a teachers perspective and how frustrating it would be when parents start blaming all their children's issues on the public school system. The parents should be involved and communicating with their own children rather than getting upset at the teachers and expecting the public school system to do the parenting for them. ..

Good thoughts.
i’ve had a lifetime of personal experience, a lot of thoughtfulness about the various ways to educate; i loved my own public ed experience and i’m grateful for it now. i have numerous close family members who were/are teachers/counselors, my dear daughter in law teaches applied mathematics in a state university. My dear mil began teaching at age 16 in a one room schoolhouse on the prairie.

We had friends who home schooled even decades ago, we had some years in smaller Christian private schools.
i’ve heard good things about charter schools, but, i’m wary .. no longer trusting government to run anything.

i’ve seen many changes first hand in my life, i’ve heard about depravity in elite private schools, and do not doubt it.
There are elite schools i wouldn’t want my family anywhere-near.

Nothing great can be expected when litigation and fears of litigation dominate decision-making.
This is our present culture. It’s poisonous. Not just in schools. Healthcare is full of it. Mental health care is crippled.

God has answers. His way may be a long path, it may be “in a flash.” It will be His way. Believers are to have faith.

[ken_sylvania]

Righteousness is not some nebulous concept that we simply must abandon. If anyone so desires to learn, the Bible is available.

Righteousness is defined as being true to your beliefs....

Baloney.....
Calling a pig a cow doesn't make it one.

[temporal1]

Presently, most teachers and parents are products of gov school education.
No one can teach what they do not know.

[Ken]

StrawMan.jpg

Nobody in this thread has mentioned medical interventions. The thread is about culture.

Then maybe y'all could define what "promoting transgenderism" means because Ken and I were accused of trying to change the topic by talking about how we refer to students by names and nicknames that aren't on their birth certificate because the real topic of this thread is how awful it is when schools call their students by names that aren't on their birth certificate.

There is a categorical difference between teachers using nicknames or shortened names or middle names for their students and teachers, in service to a brave new worldview, helping students transition to a different gender without their parents’ knowledge or consent.

Whilst the content of the actions may be similar to a point, it’s the intention and desired ends that make them so radically different. One is done without need for secrecy or deceit…the other, well, the other needs laws and lawsuits and policies of confidentiality to keep parents in the dark.

I’ve always known you to be a smart fellow, SZD. I trust you can see the difference.

Changing one's name isn't "transitioning to a different gender". I should think conservatives would understand that. Or are you one of those "gender is just a social construct" sort of people?

That said, my own opinions are the following:

1. Teachers should accommodate all requests from students when it comes to names used in class. As long as they aren't being vulgar or trying to be silly. This is utterly mundane and no different from how the rest of society functions. Especially this day and age when students often have unpronounceable foreign names, use nick names or other names outside of class, and there are often more than one with the same name. Last year I had three kids named Nicholas in the same class. One went by Nick, one went by Nikko, and one went by Nicholas. Lots of names are gender neutral and some kids even have given names from the opposite gender. I commonly have girls who have boy's names: Brett, Cameron, Ashton, Devon, Dylan, etc. Some parents also give their kids ridiculous names that the student modifies just to be more normal. It isn't the business of schools or teachers to police gender norms when it comes to names, or treat any student differently from the rest just because the teacher is suspicious of their motives. It frankly isn't any business of the school to police what name a student decides to use. And trying to ban the use of all nicknames, middle names, or whatever simply out of fear that some trans kid might be slipping through the cracks is an enormous and ridiculous over-reaction.

2. Schools should not be hiding anything from parents. But nor should be policing student's social interactions and be reporting back to parents information that is not educationally relevant. Every day I see students doing things that their parents may not approve of. If it isn't relevant to their performance in my class and isn't something illegal or subject to school discipline then it really isn't the place of the school to be policing it. For example, I have a Muslim girl in one class. It is highly likely that her parents would disapprove of her having a non-Muslim boyfriend. Should I monitor her behavior and report back to her parents if I suspect she is acting too friendly towards a non-Muslim boy? I have another girl who is quite overweight. Should I report back to her parents if I see her eating French fries? There are boundaries and it isn't appropriate for schools and teachers to police student's social behavior that is not relevant to class and is not illegal or something against the student code of conduct which every school has.

3. If a student tells a teacher or counselor something in confidence and asks that they don't pass that information on to the parent that puts the teacher or counselor into kind of a tough spot. I would generally advise the student that they need to be open and honest with their parents but unless the student was at risk of harm in some way I would generally respect that confidence. This happens more than you think. I have had dozens of such conversations with students over the years. None of them about transgender issue but other things entirely. Most recently: "Can you write me a letter of recommendation for the University of Washington? But can you not tell my mom because they want me to go to BYU?" "Well, OK sure, but they are going to find out eventually anyway so you might as well just be honest with them" Should I have picked up the phone and called that mom and told her "did you know your child is applying to UW? There are also circumstances where students are truly unsafe at home. It is dismayingly more common than you would think. So there should be a pretty high threshold for violating student confidences when a student asks you not to.

4. In a school setting, names are one thing and honestly no big deal. But if a trans student wants some higher level of accommodation (using opposite sex bathrooms, participating in girls sports instead of boy sports, etc.) then that should be a whole higher level of accommodation with formal documentation and treated like special ed or 504 accommodations through a series of meetings that include parents, psychologists (or psychologist reports), counselors, administrators, etc. in which every detail is documented and discussed and every accommodation is negotiated agreed to by all involved. That is not something that a student should be able to initiate on their own say so without a great deal of documentation and agreement from ALL of the adults involved in that child's life. Same as any other formal school accommodation. Students should no more be given a transgender accommodation on their own say so than they should be given a Special Ed accommodation on their own say so (shorter tests, reduced assignments, etc.) .

5. Schools shouldn't be in the business of pushing students in any particular direction socially in ways that are not relevant to classroom instruction. But neither should the be discouraging students either from going down their own paths. Schools shouldn't be pushing students to be Democrats or Republicans. Schools shouldn't be pushing vegetarianism or veganism or paleo or opposing students who are interested in those things. Schools shouldn't be pushing any particular religion or undermining any student's religion. Schools shouldn't be pushing students to join the military, but nor should they be trying to undermine a student who does want to join the military. Or any other legal profession for that matter. And schools shouldn't be pushing students towards any sort of gender identity, nor should they be trying to undermine any student's gender identity. Are there schools and teachers who do any of those things? Probably. But I suspect they are uncommon on all counts and none of it is the sort of thing that public schools should be involved in.

Private schools are an entirely different thing and are nearly completely unregulated in our society. People can start a private school around any ridiculous thing. Whether that should be the case is neither here nor there at this point. It it is how things are.

[Josh]

You know, the topic of this thread was never about nicknames or "changing names". The topic was about students attempting to change their sex / gender and the school being (1) complicit in it, or even helping promote it, and (2) taking concrete actions to prevent the parents from finding out about it.

The fact certain posters feel a need to keep talking about nicknames simply highlights that they don't want to talk about the core issue here.

[Ken]

You know, the topic of this thread was never about nicknames or "changing names". The topic was about students attempting to change their sex / gender and the school being (1) complicit in it, or even helping promote it, and (2) taking concrete actions to prevent the parents from finding out about it.

The fact certain posters feel a need to keep talking about nicknames simply highlights that they don't want to talk about the core issue here.

Who are you talking about? I responded entirely on point above.

[HondurasKeiser]

Then maybe y'all could define what "promoting transgenderism" means because Ken and I were accused of trying to change the topic by talking about how we refer to students by names and nicknames that aren't on their birth certificate because the real topic of this thread is how awful it is when schools call their students by names that aren't on their birth certificate.

There is a categorical difference between teachers using nicknames or shortened names or middle names for their students and teachers, in service to a brave new worldview, helping students transition to a different gender without their parents’ knowledge or consent.

Whilst the content of the actions may be similar to a point, it’s the intention and desired ends that make them so radically different. One is done without need for secrecy or deceit…the other, well, the other needs laws and lawsuits and policies of confidentiality to keep parents in the dark.

I’ve always known you to be a smart fellow, SZD. I trust you can see the difference.

Changing one's name isn't "transitioning to a different gender". I should think conservatives would understand that. Or are you one of those "gender is just a social construct" sort of people?

That said, my own opinions are the following:

1. Teachers should accommodate all requests from students when it comes to names used in class. As long as they aren't being vulgar or trying to be silly. This is utterly mundane and no different from how the rest of society functions. Especially this day and age when students often have unpronounceable foreign names, use nick names or other names outside of class, and there are often more than one with the same name. Last year I had three kids named Nicholas in the same class. One went by Nick, one went by Nikko, and one went by Nicholas. Lots of names are gender neutral and some kids even have given names from the opposite gender. I commonly have girls who have boy's names: Brett, Cameron, Ashton, Devon, Dylan, etc. Some parents also give their kids ridiculous names that the student modifies just to be more normal. It isn't the business of schools or teachers to police gender norms when it comes to names, or treat any student differently from the rest just because the teacher is suspicious of their motives. It frankly isn't any business of the school to police what name a student decides to use. And trying to ban the use of all nicknames, middle names, or whatever simply out of fear that some trans kid might be slipping through the cracks is an enormous and ridiculous over-reaction.

2. Schools should not be hiding anything from parents. But nor should be policing student's social interactions and be reporting back to parents information that is not educationally relevant. Every day I see students doing things that their parents may not approve of. If it isn't relevant to their performance in my class and isn't something illegal or subject to school discipline then it really isn't the place of the school to be policing it. For example, I have a Muslim girl in one class. It is highly likely that her parents would disapprove of her having a non-Muslim boyfriend. Should I monitor her behavior and report back to her parents if I suspect she is acting too friendly towards a non-Muslim boy? I have another girl who is quite overweight. Should I report back to her parents if I see her eating French fries? There are boundaries and it isn't appropriate for schools and teachers to police student's social behavior that is not relevant to class and is not illegal or something against the student code of conduct which every school has.

3. If a student tells a teacher or counselor something in confidence and asks that they don't pass that information on to the parent that puts the teacher or counselor into kind of a tough spot. I would generally advise the student that they need to be open and honest with their parents but unless the student was at risk of harm in some way I would generally respect that confidence. This happens more than you think. I have had dozens of such conversations with students over the years. None of them about transgender issue but other things entirely. Most recently: "Can you write me a letter of recommendation for the University of Washington? But can you not tell my mom because they want me to go to BYU?" "Well, OK sure, but they are going to find out eventually anyway so you might as well just be honest with them" Should I have picked up the phone and called that mom and told her "did you know your child is applying to UW? There are also circumstances where students are truly unsafe at home. It is dismayingly more common than you would think. So there should be a pretty high threshold for violating student confidences when a student asks you not to.

4. In a school setting, names are one thing and honestly no big deal. But if a trans student wants some higher level of accommodation (using opposite sex bathrooms, participating in girls sports instead of boy sports, etc.) then that should be a whole higher level of accommodation with formal documentation and treated like special ed or 504 accommodations through a series of meetings that include parents, psychologists (or psychologist reports), counselors, administrators, etc. in which every detail is documented and discussed and every accommodation is negotiated agreed to by all involved. That is not something that a student should be able to initiate on their own say so without a great deal of documentation and agreement from ALL of the adults involved in that child's life. Same as any other formal school accommodation. Students should no more be given a transgender accommodation on their own say so than they should be given a Special Ed accommodation on their own say so (shorter tests, reduced assignments, etc.) .

5. Schools shouldn't be in the business of pushing students in any particular direction socially in ways that are not relevant to classroom instruction. But neither should the be discouraging students either from going down their own paths. Schools shouldn't be pushing students to be Democrats or Republicans. Schools shouldn't be pushing vegetarianism or veganism or paleo or opposing students who are interested in those things. Schools shouldn't be pushing any particular religion or undermining any student's religion. Schools shouldn't be pushing students to join the military, but nor should they be trying to undermine a student who does want to join the military. Or any other legal profession for that matter. And schools shouldn't be pushing students towards any sort of gender identity, nor should they be trying to undermine any student's gender identity. Are there schools and teachers who do any of those things? Probably. But I suspect they are uncommon on all counts and none of it is the sort of thing that public schools should be involved in.

Private schools are an entirely different thing and are nearly completely unregulated in our society. People can start a private school around any ridiculous thing. Whether that should be the case is neither here nor there at this point. It it is how things are.

Changing one’s name to match the gender they feel inside, along with changing one’s pronouns is one of the first steps in “Transitioning”.

[Ken]

Changing one’s name to match the gender they feel inside, along with changing one’s pronouns is one of the first steps in “Transitioning”.

And?

A bunch of people here say this issue isn’t about names. Which is it? Teenagers experiment with all kinds of new identities when growing up. And names are pretty trivial. Pronouns even more trivial. Large numbers of students go by different names in class and with their friends. Schools shouldn’t be in the business of trying to discriminate between students based on whether or not a teacher approves of their reason for using a different name.

As I said above. Accommodations that go beyond those that are routinely accepted for all students (choice of nickname) should be dealt with like any other official school accommodation which would require parent sign off. So, for example, my daughter has mild asthma. We had to get a medical form signed by her doctor and a parent in order for her to carry an albuterol inhaler in her backpack at school. Any student who wants to use oppose sex bathrooms or PE classes or whatever should face at least the same level of scrutiny and approval (parent sign off and medical/psychologist sign off) and some sort of official meeting between parents and administrators to iron out specific boundaries and accommodations.

But if I have a Christine in class who wants to go by Chris? So what. Not my or the school’s concern what her motivation is if it doesn’t affect the class. Trying to micromanage that sort of thing just in case some trans kid might slip through the cracks is pointless hysteria.

Those are my opinions. And that is the way things are done where I teach. Students most definitely need official documented accommodations with parent meetings and sign-off if they want any sort of gender-based accommodations that go beyond the trivial like name used in class. Students are definitely not allowed to use opposite sex bathrooms just on their own say so. And even then they are directed to a private staff bathroom behind the office, not the general use student bathrooms. I’m not sure how they handle PE locker rooms, if that has even come up. Perhaps the same way, they may have them change in the coaches area. But again, this would be after meetings with parents, school psychologists, etc. and then as specified on officially agreed-to written accommodations and most certainly not on some student’s own say so.

[RZehr]

Changing one’s name to match the gender they feel inside, along with changing one’s pronouns is one of the first steps in “Transitioning”.

And?

A bunch of people here say this issue isn’t about names. Which is it? Teenagers experiment with all kinds of new identities when growing up. And names are pretty trivial. Pronouns even more trivial. Large numbers of students go by different names in class and with their friends. Schools shouldn’t be in the business of trying to discriminate between students based on whether or not a teacher approves of their reason for using a different name.

As I said above. Accommodations that go beyond those that are routinely accepted for all students (choice of nickname) should be dealt with like any other official school accommodation which would require parent sign off. So, for example, my daughter has mild asthma. We had to get a medical form signed by her doctor and a parent in order for her to carry an albuterol inhaler in her backpack at school. Any student who wants to use oppose sex bathrooms or PE classes or whatever should face at least the same level of scrutiny and approval (parent sign off and medical/psychologist sign off) and some sort of official meeting between parents and administrators to iron out specific boundaries and accommodations.

But if I have a Christine in class who wants to go by Chris? So what. Not my or the school’s concern what her motivation is if it doesn’t affect the class. Trying to micromanage that sort of thing just in case some trans kid might slip through the cracks is pointless hysteria.

Those are my opinions. And that is the way things are done where I teach. Students most definitely need official documented accommodations with parent meetings and sign-off if they want any sort of gender-based accommodations that go beyond the trivial like name used in class. Students are definitely not allowed to use opposite sex bathrooms just on their own say so. And even then they are directed to a private staff bathroom behind the office, not the general use student bathrooms. I’m not sure how they handle PE locker rooms, if that has even come up. Perhaps the same way, they may have them change in the coaches area. But again, this would be after meetings with parents, school psychologists, etc. and then as specified on officially agreed-to written accommodations and most certainly not on some student’s own say so.

I recognize that you want to conflate traditional nicknames with gender transitioning. But its different. Albeit, in your memory in ancient past (pre-trans rights), were teachers compelled and coerced into calling a student by that students preferred nickname? And required to keep such name shortening knowledge from parents? The answer is no. So lets be done with this silly rhetorical charade that nothing has changed.

[MaxPC]

You know, the topic of this thread was never about nicknames or "changing names". The topic was about students attempting to change their sex / gender and the school being (1) complicit in it, or even helping promote it, and (2) taking concrete actions to prevent the parents from finding out about it.

The fact certain posters feel a need to keep talking about nicknames simply highlights that they don't want to talk about the core issue here.

As well as distort an issue of which they have found themselves on the wrong side.

I recognize that you want to conflate traditional nicknames with gender transitioning. But its different. Albeit, in your memory in ancient past (pre-trans rights), were teachers compelled and coerced into calling a student by that students preferred nickname? And required to keep such name shortening knowledge from parents? The answer is no. So lets be done with this silly rhetorical charade that nothing has changed.

Indeed and amen.