Global Warning/Climate Change

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
Ken
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

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Josh wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2023 2:51 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2023 2:33 pmWhich part of the following do you disagree with?

1. That CO2 has inherent "greenhouse" effects that trap heat in the atmosphere rather than allowing it to radiate back out to outer space?

2. That the atmospheric concentrations of greenhouse gases affects the earth's climate?

3. That humans are increasing the concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere through their industrial activities?

4. That a warming climate will have negative affects and costs for both human civilization and the environment?
I agree with #5:

5. CO2 can also cause cooling from increased cloud cover where the sun's rays are radiated back into space; the earth has a lot of self-regulating mechanisms so that it does not enter runaway feedback loops. (If it didn't, the earth's oceans and atmosphere would have boiled off a long time ago.)

6. There is plenty of evidence in the fossil record, etc. that CO2 concentrations may have been much larger in the past.
Clouds are indeed one of the more difficult aspects of climate to model. Low clouds can indeed reflect sunlight back into space. However high clouds can provide an insulating effect and retain heat in the atmosphere. That is why cloudy nights are usually less cold than clear nights.

But what you are missing is the fact that a warmer atmosphere is likely to have less clouds because a warmer atmosphere can absorb more water vapor. Clouds are not water vapor in gas form. They are composed of droplets of liquid water that have condensed when warmer air cools, but that are not yet large enough for gravity to pull them back to earth in the form of rain or snow. A hotter atmosphere can hold more water vapor without forming clouds. And those water molecules themselves act as greenhouse gases just like CO2.

For those reasons, climate models actually predict fewer low clouds over tropical regions as the planet warms and more high clouds over high latitude arctic regions, both of which could accelerate warming, not reduce it. But again, it is a complex and difficult thing to model because there are so many variables.

As for the fossil record? There is also evidence from the fossil record that every mass extinction going back to the Permian extinction was related to atmospheric climate change. In fact research into the Permian extinction, which wiped up perhaps 90% of life on earth, suggests that it was directly caused by both methane and carbon dioxide emissions.

So if you want to rely on the fossil record, it tells us that greenhouse gases can indeed cause mass extinctions. As well as the flooding of the continents and also ice ages.
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Robert
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

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Ken wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2023 2:33 pm That CO2 has inherent "greenhouse" effects that trap heat in the atmosphere rather than allowing it to radiate back out to outer space?
co2 is not a major greenhouse gas. Water vapor is a much more impactful greenhouse gas that has a much higher affect on climate.
Ken wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2023 2:33 pm That the atmospheric concentrations of greenhouse gases affects the earth's climate?
Yes. Water vapor being the dominate gas that affects climate.
Ken wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2023 2:33 pm That humans are increasing the concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere through their industrial activities?
Yes, but the co2 that humans are adding to the total is negligible. One volcano emits 100% more than all the humans combined.
Ken wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2023 2:33 pm That a warming climate will have negative affects and costs for both human civilization and the environment?


I disagree with this. A warming climate will increase the release of trapped co2 which will increase plant growth, allowing plants to require less water, produce more crops, and increase the 02 levels in the atmosphere. It will increase rainfall which will reduce desertification. This will help impoverished countries and allow them to prosper and no longer need to fight wars to get more produce.

I have presented scientific evidence for all this in this thread. Feel free to go back and read it.
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justme

Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

Post by justme »

this is what i noticed recently when pa had all the smoke and haze from the canada fires

it was much chillier than normal.
i figured it was because the sun couldn't get thru the smoke
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Ken
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

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Robert wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2023 4:51 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2023 2:33 pm That CO2 has inherent "greenhouse" effects that trap heat in the atmosphere rather than allowing it to radiate back out to outer space?
co2 is not a major greenhouse gas. Water vapor is a much more impactful greenhouse gas that has a much higher affect on climate.
Ken wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2023 2:33 pm That the atmospheric concentrations of greenhouse gases affects the earth's climate?
Yes. Water vapor being the dominate gas that affects climate.
Ken wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2023 2:33 pm That humans are increasing the concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere through their industrial activities?
Yes, but the co2 that humans are adding to the total is negligible. One volcano emits 100% more than all the humans combined.
Ken wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2023 2:33 pm That a warming climate will have negative affects and costs for both human civilization and the environment?


I disagree with this. A warming climate will increase the release of trapped co2 which will increase plant growth, allowing plants to require less water, produce more crops, and increase the 02 levels in the atmosphere. It will increase rainfall which will reduce desertification. This will help impoverished countries and allow them to prosper and no longer need to fight wars to get more produce.

I have presented scientific evidence for all this in this thread. Feel free to go back and read it.
I think the most active volcano on the planet is Mauna Loa in Hawaii. Mauna Loa when its eruption cycle was peaking 1984 emitted about 100,000 tons of CO2 per year or about 275 tons per day, which is about the same as a city of 40,000. It has since dropped to about 100-times lower rates today.
https://gml.noaa.gov/obop/mlo/programs/ ... icco2.html and https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/blogs ... o2-record/ The United States emits about 18 MILLION metric tons of CO2 through industrial activity every day, and worldwide human activity is closer to 100 MILLION metric tons per day. That is over 360,000-times more than Mauna Loa, the most active volcano on the planet when it was peaking.

As for CO2 and plants? The chemical formula for photosynthesis is 6CO2 + 6H2O → C6H12O6 + 6O2 which means that for every molecule of CO2 a plant requires a molecule of H2O. Photosynthesis consumes water rather than producing it, and faster plant growth requires more water not less. And in hotter climates, plants transpire faster which requires still more water. That is why you need to water your lawn more on hot days than cool days. I don't know what scientific evidence you presented to the contrary, but that is basic science found in any comprehensive HS biology textbook printed in the last 100 years.
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Robert
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

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Ken wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2023 5:38 pm I don't know what scientific evidence you presented to the contrary, but that is basic science found in any comprehensive HS biology textbook printed in the last 100 years.
Scroll back in the thread and you will find plenty.

Again, my research shows that co2 does not raise temperatures the amounts claimed by some. The models are showing that co2 is not raising the temperature as much as they predicted.

Plants starve at about 250 PPM of co2. Humans can easily survive in 1500 PPM of co2. Most office buildings are at 1500 PPM daily. More co2 means more photosynthesis. More means more plants and more food. CO2 is not raising the temperature as they predicted. When the temperature does go up, which is it about 10 degrees C below the mean of the planet, we will see more plant life and more clouds. More clouds will rain more and block more sunlight, which keeps the greenhouse effect from running away.

We are coming out of an ice age. We do not need more ice. We need more heat.
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

Post by MaxPC »

Robert wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2023 9:00 pm
Again, my research shows that co2 does not raise temperatures the amounts claimed by some. The models are showing that co2 is not raising the temperature as much as they predicted.

Plants starve at about 250 PPM of co2. Humans can easily survive in 1500 PPM of co2. Most office buildings are at 1500 PPM daily. More co2 means more photosynthesis. More means more plants and more food. CO2 is not raising the temperature as they predicted. When the temperature does go up, which is it about 10 degrees C below the mean of the planet, we will see more plant life and more clouds. More clouds will rain more and block more sunlight, which keeps the greenhouse effect from running away.

We are coming out of an ice age. We do not need more ice. We need more heat.
Precisely. Additionally, an increase in photosynthesis results in an increase in O2. In a 1950s-1980s longitudinal study of tree growth in protected forests, it was found that accelerated growth rates in those trees were directly correlative with increased atmospheric CO2 even with all the other variables accounted for and eliminated. God's creation is a magnificent and complex system that has its own checks and balances.

Another aspect of God's creation: in other longitudinal studies of adaptive evolution, it was concluded that evolutionary changes in a species can occur in as little time as one generation. In short, God has programmed all of creation with systemic redundancies and counterbalances that ensure the survival of species, both flora and fauna. Of course, the secular world will deny and negate this but what is man to God's divinity and genius? Nothing.
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Ken
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

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MaxPC wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2023 9:27 pm
Robert wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2023 9:00 pm
Again, my research shows that co2 does not raise temperatures the amounts claimed by some. The models are showing that co2 is not raising the temperature as much as they predicted.

Plants starve at about 250 PPM of co2. Humans can easily survive in 1500 PPM of co2. Most office buildings are at 1500 PPM daily. More co2 means more photosynthesis. More means more plants and more food. CO2 is not raising the temperature as they predicted. When the temperature does go up, which is it about 10 degrees C below the mean of the planet, we will see more plant life and more clouds. More clouds will rain more and block more sunlight, which keeps the greenhouse effect from running away.

We are coming out of an ice age. We do not need more ice. We need more heat.
Precisely. Additionally, an increase in photosynthesis results in an increase in O2. In a 1950s-1980s longitudinal study of tree growth in protected forests, it was found that accelerated growth rates in those trees were directly correlative with increased atmospheric CO2 even with all the other variables accounted for and eliminated. God's creation is a magnificent and complex system that has its own checks and balances.

Another aspect of God's creation: in other longitudinal studies of adaptive evolution, it was concluded that evolutionary changes in a species can occur in as little time as one generation. In short, God has programmed all of creation with systemic redundancies and counterbalances that ensure the survival of species, both flora and fauna. Of course, the secular world will deny and negate this but what is man to God's divinity and genius? Nothing.
What are you talking about?

Sometimes CO2 is the limiting factor for plant growth. Sometimes it isn't. Often times it is something else like nitrogen, phosphorus, water, sunlight, temperature, or other environmental factors. In most ecosystems it is probably nitrogen, phosphorus, or water, and not CO2.

And yes, evolutionary changes in a population (defined as a change in allele frequencies) can happen in as little as one generation. That is basic HS biology. It is in every modern HS biology textbook and HS biology students measure this kind of evolutionary change using the Hardy-Weinberg Equilibrium equations which date back to 1908.

The secular world doesn't deny any of this. It is basic science.

What I find curious is people who deny that humans can have a negative impact on the environment. When we know from all of human history that they most certainly can and do. It isn't even Biblical. We are commanded to be good stewards of the earth and consider the impacts of our actions on our neighbors. Rather than prioritize wealth and wealth extraction.
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Robert
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

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Ken wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2023 2:30 pm What I find curious is people who deny that humans can have a negative impact on the environment.
What I find curious is many ignore the positive impact on environment that humans have, like flood control and endangered species protections.

Just claiming humans do all bad and no good to the environment is not reflecting the whole picture.
Ken wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2023 2:30 pm What are you talking about?
Statements like this do not help conversation. Please improve.
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Ken
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

Post by Ken »

Robert wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2023 2:48 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2023 2:30 pm What I find curious is people who deny that humans can have a negative impact on the environment.
What I find curious is many ignore the positive impact on environment that humans have, like flood control and endangered species protections.

Just claiming humans do all bad and no good to the environment is not reflecting the whole picture.
I'm not aware of anyone here ignoring positive impacts that humans can have on the environment. I certainly agree that humans can have both positive and negative impacts. Although endangered species protections are more about mitigating negative impacts.

And, of course, human-built dams can affect both climate and weather in a region. Something we were told upstream in this tread is impossible because "God controls the weather"
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Robert
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Re: Global Warning/Climate Change

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Ken wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2023 3:32 pm And, of course, human-built dams can affect both climate and weather in a region. Something we were told upstream in this tread is impossible because "God controls the weather"
That is not what was said and you are taking it to the extreme. Something, again, against the guidelines. An educator should be able to read the guidelines and work within them. I expect that from you.
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