Global Warning/Climate Change

[Soloist]

I heard somewhere where the life changing Gospel of Jesus Christ was the answer to all these things. I guess it has moved way down the list for a possible solution to most problems.

Well I think it’s the perfect solution.

Ti 6:6  But godliness with contentment is great gain.
1Ti 6:7  For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
1Ti 6:8  And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:9  But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.

If we only were content with less.

[Ken]

If we want to build a more sustainable life like that practiced by the Amish in a nation of 330 million it is going to mean learning to live in closer proximity to each other and getting out of our cars. There is no other way to do it.

I heard somewhere where the life changing Gospel of Jesus Christ was the answer to all these things. I guess it has moved way down the list for a possible solution to most problems.

I would suggest that the Amish are actually on to something. And that building a society of deliberate and modest Christian communities is incompatible with a car-centric society in which all of our infrastructure and investment is dedicated to accommodating the automobile rather than people.

That doesn't mean abandoning all technology. But cars are actually dehumanizing. There are psychological terms for how cars make us more aggressive and less tolerant of others when we are behind the wheel and interacting with other cars on the highway rather than the people within them. That is why "road rage" is more common than "sidewalk rage" and why normally polite and modest people like my wife can become aggressive behind the wheel without even realizing it.

If we want to build intentional Christian communities then I would suggest the place to start is with communities in which we interact with each other face to face instead of always behind the wheel. Does that mean banning or eliminating cars? No, of course not. It simply means de-emphasizing them and not building communities in which they are necessary for every daily activity. Just like building intentional communities doesn't mean banning all computers and the internet. But it will mean de-emphasizing social media and focusing on real face-to-face interactions instead. Because just like cars, computers and social media have the same dehumanizing effect and we all say things online (myself included) that we would be hesitant to say face-to-face.

And if we do all of that, then I would suggest that the result will be more environmentally sustainable as well. We don't have to live like the Amish to create more modest and sustainable communities. But we do need to focus on being more people-centric rather than technology-centric.

[Josh]

In order to interact face-to-face, each interaction must not be fraught with danger (particularly for women and children). That's why taking care of crime needs to be the first step.

Amish communities locate in places where they don't have to face a lot of street crime or violence or property crime. If they did, they would pack up and move. (Mennonites are the same way - some places like certain parts of Phoenix or central California simply didn't work out, the crime just made it too difficult to function.)

[Ken]

A look back:

I suggest you acquaint yourself with the scientific concepts of tipping points and positive feedback loops.

Are their claims true? I have no idea. The earth systems are very complex and I don't think anyone can know precisely when certain tipping points will be reached.

That said, we have also not been inactive in the past decade or two. We have made absolutely tremendous investments and advances in energy efficiency and clean energy. Look at your own state of Ohio and compare energy production between 2009 and 2023. During that time coal as an energy source in Ohio has dropped from nearly 90% to what? about 20% or less? New homes and commercial buildings are being built to more energy efficient standards, cars and trucks are more energy efficient and less polluting. Have we done enough? Probably not. But we are definitely on a different trajectory and most definitely doing many things differently than we were in 2009 or 2000 or 1970.

[Robert]

That doesn't mean abandoning all technology. But cars are actually dehumanizing. There are psychological terms for how cars make us more aggressive and less tolerant of others when we are behind the wheel and interacting with other cars on the highway rather than the people within them.

I agree that this does happen, but I wonder if cell phones are worse. Cars can also be a unifying tool. They are tools. They can be used for good or ill. Educating people to seek the good instead of the bad is needed, but people seem to not be interested in being educated. How do we do that to a population that is so "me" centered?

Sudsy is right. IF people would be Christ centered, much of the issues would go away, but it seems our culture is moving away from that and towards self gratification and self identity. The LBGT community is very much self centered. Most western culture is that way now.

Our response to our impact on environment is more a by product of our culture. I fear we much change the culture to change the impact.

[Robert]

A look back:

I suggest you acquaint yourself with the scientific concepts of tipping points and positive feedback loops.

Are their claims true? I have no idea. The earth systems are very complex and I don't think anyone can know precisely when certain tipping points will be reached.

That said, we have also not been inactive in the past decade or two. We have made absolutely tremendous investments and advances in energy efficiency and clean energy. Look at your own state of Ohio and compare energy production between 2009 and 2023. During that time coal as an energy source in Ohio has dropped from nearly 90% to what? about 20% or less? New homes and commercial buildings are being built to more energy efficient standards, cars and trucks are more energy efficient and less polluting. Have we done enough? Probably not. But we are definitely on a different trajectory and most definitely doing many things differently than we were in 2009 or 2000 or 1970.

All of this is based on the concept that co2 is harmful. I disagree and feel all that effect is wasted.

[Ken]

A look back:

I suggest you acquaint yourself with the scientific concepts of tipping points and positive feedback loops.

Are their claims true? I have no idea. The earth systems are very complex and I don't think anyone can know precisely when certain tipping points will be reached.

That said, we have also not been inactive in the past decade or two. We have made absolutely tremendous investments and advances in energy efficiency and clean energy. Look at your own state of Ohio and compare energy production between 2009 and 2023. During that time coal as an energy source in Ohio has dropped from nearly 90% to what? about 20% or less? New homes and commercial buildings are being built to more energy efficient standards, cars and trucks are more energy efficient and less polluting. Have we done enough? Probably not. But we are definitely on a different trajectory and most definitely doing many things differently than we were in 2009 or 2000 or 1970.

All of this is based on the concept that co2 is harmful. I disagree and feel all that effect is wasted.

Which part of the following do you disagree with?

1. That CO2 has inherent "greenhouse" effects that trap heat in the atmosphere rather than allowing it to radiate back out to outer space?

2. That the atmospheric concentrations of greenhouse gases affects the earth's climate?

3. That humans are increasing the concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere through their industrial activities?

4. That a warming climate will have negative affects and costs for both human civilization and the environment?

[Josh]

A look back:

I suggest you acquaint yourself with the scientific concepts of tipping points and positive feedback loops.

I am acquainted with both of these. However, I disagree with the predictions that we are "really near" a tipping point or a runaway feedback loop. The main reason I say this is because basically all of the past predictions of this have not come to pass (such as the examples I posted above).

Are their claims true? I have no idea. The earth systems are very complex and I don't think anyone can know precisely when certain tipping points will be reached.

The claims the planet only had 4 years left during Obama's term was obviously not true.

That said, we have also not been inactive in the past decade or two. We have made absolutely tremendous investments and advances in energy efficiency and clean energy. Look at your own state of Ohio and compare energy production between 2009 and 2023. During that time coal as an energy source in Ohio has dropped from nearly 90% to what? about 20% or less?

Yes, Ohio engaged in massive amounts of fracking and oil drilling and now has a large excess of natural gas. They just built some more natural gas plants around here and ran giant power lines right next to my driveway to carry all the new electricity capacity.

The main effect of all this (plus deregulation, the biggest culprit) is that our power bills have gone way up - which is not a good thing at all.

New homes and commercial buildings are being built to more energy efficient standards,

That's not a good thing either. Newer homes can't "breathe" and require constant HVAC instead of being able to just open a window. That also means you are at risk of mold building up. I prefer older homes that are not designed to be airtight.

cars and trucks are more energy efficient and less polluting. Have we done enough? Probably not. But we are definitely on a different trajectory and most definitely doing many things differently than we were in 2009 or 2000 or 1970.

OK. So are you saying total emissions have gone down since 2009 or 2000 or 1970?

[Josh]

Which part of the following do you disagree with?

1. That CO2 has inherent "greenhouse" effects that trap heat in the atmosphere rather than allowing it to radiate back out to outer space?

2. That the atmospheric concentrations of greenhouse gases affects the earth's climate?

3. That humans are increasing the concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere through their industrial activities?

4. That a warming climate will have negative affects and costs for both human civilization and the environment?

I agree with #5:

5. CO2 can also cause cooling from increased cloud cover where the sun's rays are radiated back into space; the earth has a lot of self-regulating mechanisms so that it does not enter runaway feedback loops. (If it didn't, the earth's oceans and atmosphere would have boiled off a long time ago.)

6. There is plenty of evidence in the fossil record, etc. that CO2 concentrations may have been much larger in the past.

[Ken]

A look back:

I suggest you acquaint yourself with the scientific concepts of tipping points and positive feedback loops.

I am acquainted with both of these. However, I disagree with the predictions that we are "really near" a tipping point or a runaway feedback loop. The main reason I say this is because basically all of the past predictions of this have not come to pass (such as the examples I posted above).

Are their claims true? I have no idea. The earth systems are very complex and I don't think anyone can know precisely when certain tipping points will be reached.

The claims the planet only had 4 years left during Obama's term was obviously not true.

That said, we have also not been inactive in the past decade or two. We have made absolutely tremendous investments and advances in energy efficiency and clean energy. Look at your own state of Ohio and compare energy production between 2009 and 2023. During that time coal as an energy source in Ohio has dropped from nearly 90% to what? about 20% or less?

Yes, Ohio engaged in massive amounts of fracking and oil drilling and now has a large excess of natural gas. They just built some more natural gas plants around here and ran giant power lines right next to my driveway to carry all the new electricity capacity.

The main effect of all this (plus deregulation, the biggest culprit) is that our power bills have gone way up - which is not a good thing at all.

New homes and commercial buildings are being built to more energy efficient standards,

That's not a good thing either. Newer homes can't "breathe" and require constant HVAC instead of being able to just open a window. That also means you are at risk of mold building up. I prefer older homes that are not designed to be airtight.

cars and trucks are more energy efficient and less polluting. Have we done enough? Probably not. But we are definitely on a different trajectory and most definitely doing many things differently than we were in 2009 or 2000 or 1970.

OK. So are you saying total emissions have gone down since 2009 or 2000 or 1970?

Again, you are deliberately misrepresenting the authors who you quoted upstream.

None of them said that the world would end in 4 year or 5 years. What they said was that the clock was ticking and that governments and society cannot wait to take action for 4 or 5 more years because by then it may be too late. And, in fact, that did happen. Both governments and societies around the world have taken many thousands of different actions large and small over the past 5 years. Will it be enough to push the clock back or reverse course? Who knows. But we are on a different trajectory than we were on previously.